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Author Topic:   What Is The Holy Spirit
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 31 of 176 (710970)
11-13-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-12-2013 6:12 PM


Re: Who Has The Spirit?
Phat writes:

Some believe that all humans have the awareness. The spark. The desire. Others believe that only "believers" get this ability.


quote:
Galatians 5:13-18 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

"Walking" in the Spirit is an action, serving one another. Those who believe in serving one another are walking in the Spirit. Those who believe in something else may not be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-12-2013 6:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Omnivorous, posted 11-13-2013 7:04 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-07-2020 1:33 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 35 of 176 (883424)
12-07-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-06-2020 3:21 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Phat writes:

7) Holiness(sounds just like #2)


Indeed it does - but 7 is a magic number.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 3:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 44 of 176 (883436)
12-08-2020 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
12-07-2020 1:33 PM


Re: Who Has The Spirit?
Phat writes:

I sometimes think that you let your logical mind override your intuition and inner spirit.


YES! YES! YES! Of course I do! Who wouldn't? What's the point of being homo sapiens if we don't use our sapient abilities? If you rely on your intuition, you might as well be a cow.

Phat writes:

For some reason you despise religion.


No mystery. I despise what is despicable. (That isn't necessarily all religion.)

Phat writes:

And don't come back at me declaring that I don't do what He says.


But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-07-2020 1:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:33 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 46 of 176 (883444)
12-08-2020 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
12-08-2020 11:33 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.


Liar.

Nope. It's a well-documented fact.

Phat writes:

You have no idea what I do.


I can only go by what you say here - and you have denied many times what Jesus said.

Phat writes:

Needless to say, your interpretation and my interpretation don't always agree.


My "interpretation" is just a plain reading. Yours is a self-serving fiction.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 2:24 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 61 of 176 (883475)
12-09-2020 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
12-08-2020 2:24 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

Do you specifically remember what He said (as character in a book, by the way)which I refused to do or scoffed at? I only remeember one argument...that of the rich young ruler.


Isn't one example enough?

Phat writes:

IIRC you said that Jesus required for everyone to give all that they had whereas I tried to argue that since you didnt believe that Jesus was real and alive, your argument had no clout...


Again, I don't have to believe that Frodo was real to know what he said in the book. Address that.

But if YOU believe the Jesus character was/is real, then YOU should certainly do what He said, shouldn't you?

Phat writes:

As I said before, my argument was not with Jesus---whom I believe is more than a book character.


Your argument is with the Jesus in the book. That's the only REAL documentation that you have about Him.

But you prefer to follow the character that you've made up in your head, which is a much less reliable source. Clearly, you prefer your own made-up Jesus because he never asks you to do anything hard.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 2:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 8:13 AM ringo has responded
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 67 of 176 (883532)
12-15-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
12-11-2020 8:13 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

So are you suggesting that the many of us who have "let go and let God"...become real in our lives think as nothing more than cows?


How is that even a question? If you refuse to use your logical mind, you might as well be a cow.

Phat writes:

Because I am suggesting that there was something in your rational minds that was overly rational...


You can "suggest" until the cows come home but you have nothing to back up your claim. "Overly rational"? Isn't that like being "overly healthy"? Can you have less than nothing wrong with you?

Phat writes:

...to the point where you just wouldn't let go of the evidence based discipline and allow yourself to see and experience the supernatural.


If the "supernatural" had any reality to it, the "evidence-based discipline" would see it. Your pretense that the "supernatural" hides from evidence-based discipline is a huge cop-out. As I keep reminding you, that excuse applies to everything you don't believe in too: the leprechauns are hiding from us just like your God is.

Phat writes:

Look, I know the difference between fantasy based wish fulfillment and a genuine mysterious yet shared experience.


Clearly not.

Phat writes:

What is it that you find so despicable about faith-based (occasionally irrational) belief?


How about the lies, for a start? Why do you have to lie about your own Holy Book to prop up your fantasies?

Phat writes:

Is it the over-reliance on emotion vs dry evidence based fact?


There's a place for emotion. It should never over-ride evidence.

Phat writes:

Is it the shortcut that Jesus "saves" us and that we thus are not expected to do good works to complete our salvation?


How is that not despicable?

Phat writes:

Because if so, I can assure you that at my church anyway we do every bit as much good works in our community as all of jars taking out of the neighbors trash, putting grocery carts back in the corral, or you and your pocket full of spare change.


As I have pointed out too many times to count, it isn't how much you give that counts; it's how much you hold back. Holding back indicates a lack of trust in God.

Phat writes:

My only beef with you two is that you refuse to acknowledge the presence of God beyond what the book says...


And you refuse to acknowledge the presence of leprechauns. What's the difference?

Phat writes:

...and then have the gall to scold me because I do...


I have the gall to point out that you're inconsistent. You make a distinction between God and leprechauns.

Phat writes:

... (and in your opinion don't do enough)


It isn't my opinion. It's Jesus' opinion.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.


And if so, neither do you.

Of course I do. Why would I do what a fictional character says?

Phat writes:

And you have no excuse any more than I might.


My "excuse" is that I don't do what any fictional character says just because he says it.

The point of doing what Jesus says is to show that you have faith in Him, faith in what He says, and that you trust Him to stand by you regardless of the consequences. I don't believe He exists, I don't have faith in Him and I know He won't stand by me because He doesn't exist.

So for God's sake, stop using that stupid argument.

Phat writes:

Explain to the peanut gallery how my interpretation is self-serving?


Oh come on. The peanut gallery can see it without any further explanation from me. Why don't you explain how believing that you don't have to do anything is not self-serving?

Phat writes:

Asimov, Stan Lee or any good fiction writer can provide you with documentation about Frodo, or Long John Silver, or whatever character they create.


That's first-hand documentation by the authentic authors. You certainly have no such documentation for Jesus.

Phat writes:

Even here at EvC, your documentation of your so-called "plain reading" is simply further evidence as to what *you* believe that the character says.


Nonsense. I quote the documentation so that anybody who reads it can see what it said. It doesn't make any difference what I think it says.

Phat writes:

But until you step out of the boat and walk over to where I and other believers reside...


As I keep telling you, I have been there. That's how I know how empty it is.

Phat writes:

...content to cling to an ancient book simply to make an argument...


I'm just pointing out that your "faith" is completely made up in your head. If you're not "clinging" to the Book, the character in your head might as well be called Barny Rubble.

Phat writes:

and loathe to step beyond your rational minds...


Do you even realize how stupid it is to argue against rationality?

Phat writes:

... and your limited conception of God.


I have no conception of God. And the one you make up in your head is far more limited thn the ones in the Bible.

Phat writes:

This Jesus whom you claim I make up most certainly does ask me to do things that are uncomfortable for me to do.


But He doesn't ask you to give up everything you have to follow Him.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you should become reacquainted with Him if in fact you ever met Him.


How arrogant of you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 8:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 68 of 176 (883533)
12-15-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
12-15-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.


It isn't a "specific text"; it's a theme. Besides the rich young ruler:

1. Jesus praised the widow for giving her last two mites, saying that it was more significant than the bags and bags of gold given by the rich men.

2. Even in the Old Testament, another widow gave Elijah the last of her food, believing that she and here son would starve to death because of it.

3. Zacchaeus promised to make fourfold restitution to the people he had cheated and to give the remaining half of his fortune to the poor. There is no indication that he held anything back.

4. The early church believed it was what Jesus wanted them to do. And it seems they were right because Ananias and Sapphira were killed (by God) for not doing it.

So what do you have to back up your claim that what Jesus said to the rich young ruler was specific to him only?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 94 of 176 (883582)
12-21-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
12-19-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

The issue is the right to spend other peoples money for them.


And everybody agrees that governments should spend the money for them - on roads, on schools, etc.

But that is not the issue. The issue is that Christians are supposed to take care of the poor - but they don't, so governments have it do it.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-19-2020 11:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-21-2020 9:32 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 95 of 176 (883583)
12-21-2020 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-19-2020 9:12 PM


Re: What Jesus Said vs What We Do
Phat writes:

Perhaps I don't believe that every *true* follower needs to give up everything literally. ringo can argue until the sacred cows come home, but I'm not falling for an argument from a man who has ceased considering belief as relevant.


I don't have to believe That Frodo existed to know what the book says. Address that point.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 12-19-2020 9:12 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 98 of 176 (883589)
12-22-2020 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
12-21-2020 9:32 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

First, define "the poor". Is it the guy scraping by on minimum wage trying to raise a family? Is it people largely outside of the United States that are far worse off?


Don't try to calculate your way out of responsibility. "The poor" is anybody who needs your help.

Phat writes:

Next, using the "book" as a supporting argument, who among us globally professes to be a Christian?


You do.

Phat writes:

And does this legally obligate these people alone to ...oh I dunno....give all that they have to alleviate global poverty before anyone else is legally obligated to lift a finger?


As I have told you many times before, it has nothing to do with legal obligation. It's something that a reall follower of Christ would do cheerfully.

Phat writes:

Lets be clear what you mean, ringo.


I have been very clear: A follower of Christ would be glad to do what He asked. The disciples did it. The early Church did it. But you are a follower of a "Jesus" that you have made up in your head - one that is very careful not to ask you to do anything you don't want to do.

Phat writes:

Do I get a share of your spare change if I am Christian or if I am simply poor?


You get a share of my spare change if you ask for it. Ask and ye shall receive.

Phat writes:

Are you exempt from the group that has to help the poor through government since the church down the block failed?


You know the answer to that. The government doesn't exempt anybody.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-21-2020 9:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-29-2020 3:17 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 110 of 176 (883665)
01-04-2021 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
12-29-2020 3:17 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

Lets close out the year arguing about the practical implications of "giving it all up".


We already know the practical implications. The Early Church did it. Many religious communities have done it since then and many still do it.

Phat writes:

Despite your overall mockery of apologists, this one has as good of an answer as I would give.


So bring it here.

Phat writes:

You will take the literal words of the book (and the character Jesus in the book) as your argument.


Not at all. See above. Many people who don't accept the book give it all up.

Phat writes:

I do not see Jesus expecting everyone whom He talks to to do everything that He says to each individual as a collective instruction.


But I have pointed out to you many times that it is NOT an individual instruction. See the widow who gave her only two mites. See the early church. See the widow who fed Elijah.

Phat writes:

I also do not relate to Jesus the character any more than I would or even could relate to the character Frodo...or Long John Silver.


I know you don't. You relate to the character that you made up, who coincidentally has the same name but not the same principles, who doesn't ask you to do anything hard.

Phat writes:

If Karl Marx...long dead...told you that from each according to his ability to each according to their needs, I wouldn't expect you to listen to that either.


I believe in "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" because it's a good principle. I don't care who said it. I also believe in much of what Jesus said because they are good principles, not because of who said it.

You, on the other hand, have created a personality cult around the messenger and ignored His message.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I have been very clear: A follower of Christ would be glad to do what He asked. The disciples did it. The early Church did it. But you are a follower of a "Jesus" that you have made up in your head - one that is very careful not to ask you to do anything you don't want to do.


Again, you never mention the modern church.

On the contrary, I was specifically contrasting the early church with your modern cult.

Phat writes:

Why are you puzzled that very few of us would do it?


I'm not puzzled at all. Few of you would do it because you're fair-weather "Christians". You don't trust your God to take care of you.

Phat writes:

Is that why you stopped believing?


I stopped believing because the beliefs are nonsense.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-29-2020 3:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-07-2021 5:23 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 111 of 176 (883666)
01-04-2021 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
12-30-2020 2:28 PM


Re: Reasoned Argumentation. RE: AZPaul3
Phat writes:

Ringo is a bit more puzzling because3 hee used to be a believer....I'm thinking a rather serious one...and then became disillusioned for two basic reasons.
1) Logic and Evidence took obvious precedence.
2) Most "Christians" whom he knew failed to live up to the standard(which he considers a no-brainer)


No, most Christians that I knew and know (don't forget that almost everybody I know is a Christian) are better people than I am. Most of them would acknowledge that they are not doing as much as they should. I'm only arguing against the raving-lunatic fundamentalists who have the audacity to deny what Jesus plainly said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 12-30-2020 2:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 112 of 176 (883667)
01-04-2021 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-31-2020 3:26 PM


Re: Reasoned Argumentation. RE: AZPaul3
Phat writes:

Jar, on the other hand, has positioned himself both as a believer(or at least a recognized member of a church) and yet also beholden to logic, reason, and reality.


Everybody should be beholden to logic, reason and reality.

If God exists, He didn't give you a head just so that you could wear a crown of thorns that you got out of Crackerjacks. He wanted you to use it.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-31-2020 3:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 115 of 176 (883717)
01-08-2021 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
01-07-2021 5:23 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

Im asking you to think of the logical and practical implications of a whole country doing it...and what it would mean.


Nobody said anything about the whole country doing it. It's an instruction to believers.

Phat writes:

I( refuse to give up my private property to some government plan to eliminate poverty at my expense.


No, you don't refuse to pay your taxes. You refuse to follow Jesus.

Phat writes:

If the rich get to skip out, so do I.


Not if you want to be "saved", you don't.

Phat writes:

Giving all my money to the poor wont help me without the help (voluntary not mandatory) of the upper middle class.


Well, of course the whole middle class would be helping.

But you're missing the point. God is supposedly helping too - but you don't have faith in Him.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Many people who don't accept the book give it all up.


They are usually liberal globalist extremists.

Monks are liberal global extremists? Don't be silly. And stop wallowing in that right-wing propaganda.

Phat writes:

Read my lips. Private property is an inalienable right.


No it isn't. You have no "right" to grab as much as you can while somebody else doesn't have enough to live.

Phat writes:

There are problems with common property held by a government if everyone was forced to give up their assets to the state.


Again, not what we're talking about.

Phat writes:

Do the math and explain to me how I would maintain a decent lifestyle by giving it all up.


I've answered that many times: Jesus will supposedly take care of you.

Phat writes:

And why I should be the guy in line ahead of you to do it?


Because you supposedly believe in Jesus.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-07-2021 5:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 176 of 176 (884553)
02-24-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
01-31-2021 3:49 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Phat writes:

first of all, how would I present a reasoned argument concerning objectively unconvincing beliefs and experiences?


People often confuse "reason" with "excuse". You might say your "reason" for considering voting for Trump is that the Democrats are all baby-eating leftists - but that is not a "reason"; that's an excuse for not looking at the facts and not thinking.

Proper "reasoning" goes from truth to truth. You need true premises to produce true conclusions.

So you can't produce a reasoned argument without true premises - and your "experiences" are not true (for the purposes of reasoning) unless they can be confirmed objectively.

Phat writes:

I can tell you what I have experienced and you can choose whether to trust me or not...


The problem is that YOU shouldn't be trusting the first explanation that you glommed onto.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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