What Is The Holy Spirit

Funkaloyd writes: What about an agnostic, who doesn't believe in gods, but doesn't believe that there are no gods?

Don't trip....just chill with reality and honesty at the forefront.

One thing I do know----if anything moves you, it won't be the words of men.

:) :) :) :) :)>>>>>>>>>>>>PB<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<;) ;) ;)

RiverRat writes: I read about it, and studied it in the bible, but it was years before I finally felt what I believe is the Holy Spirit manifesting himself in me. I have been trying to explain it for 2 years, and analyze it, and how it affects me. I try to be as objective as possible, but there are just too many coincidences.

I have felt as you did before. (I think! :o ) I feel no need to explain it to others...I am more interested in behaving the best I know how.

RR writes: I get "downloads" of information sometimes. Sometimes that information is to help me, and sometimes it is to help others.

Is that why you are so good at chess? :p

IMHO are far more likely to be coming from Atheists and Agnostics than from Christians.

This makes no sense. I would say as likely since logically all people are the same.

Concerning good works...

training or indoctrination certainly can override any original equality...

We have discussed many things..both you, I, and others.

Some believe that all humans have the awareness. The spark. The desire. Others believe that only "believers" get this ability.

Assuming that all people are responsible, as you do, I can see where you say that much of organized religion encourages its followers to "let go and let God", only help those who are worthy, let Jesus deal with them, and on and on. I believe this to a limited degree...in that God will work through unbelievers as readily as through believers. Thats one reason I stay here at EvC. Many of the arguments here cause me great cognitive dissonance, but I sense that the motives of most of you are by and large sincere and not destructive.

Here is one apologists take on the Holy Spirit amongst "Believers".

For thos not inclined to watch the video, David Diga Hernandez lists 7 signs that one has the Holy Spirit.
1) Confidence In Salvation
2) Godly Character
3)Power & Passion for Evangelism
4)The Gift of Tongues
5)Love for Jesus
6)Knowledge of Truth (Absolute...not Relative)
7) Holiness(sounds just like #2)

We can discuss the merits of these. though Diga Hernandez makes a good case it can be challenged and elaborated. Surely if we collectively believe that the Holy Spirit (aka GOD) exists, we can come to a consensus.

I would argue that love for Jesus is the main issue. Even Jesus said that there were two commandments on which all of the law and prophets are encapsulated within.
1) Love God.
2)Love others. Loving Jesus is in effect loving God.

As we revisited this old topic I saw your name...and a good post, by the way. How are you and how have you been? I miss hearing from you.

jar writes: All of the Goats loved Jesus and look at where they ended up. None of the Sheep loved Jesus and look where they ended up.

Many of the goats fawned over Jesus, bragging that they knew Him but not having a relationship or as you would emphasize...doing for the least of these. Their relationship with Jesus was superficial. Other goats willfully denied Jesus though they knew of Him.
The sheep may or may not have been aware of the presence of Jesus...some, like you, kept questioning it...but they did for the least of these and thus had works credited as righteousness. Many of them were atheists. Yes, I understand the concept.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

ringo writes: "Walking" in the Spirit is an action, serving one another. Those who believe in serving one another are walking in the Spirit. Those who believe in something else may not be.

I cant argue with you there. I just get annoyed when you claim

quote:

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I don't believe that Jesus, the human, existed - because there is no solid evidence that he existed. I think the stories about him are most likely based on an amalgamation of preachers who wandered Palestine in the 1st century - like Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry was based on real-life evangelists.

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I sometimes think that you let your logical mind override your intuition and inner spirit. For some reason you despise religion. I suppose that you and jar have a case that by loving and serving others we are loving and serving Jesus....but He does exist. Just sayin.

And don't come back at me declaring that I don't do what He says. I most certainly do. Hang with me for a week and see.

jar writes: Who posted "I would argue that love for Jesus is the main issue."?

I did, but as you see in my reply to ringo, I elaborated that you and he likely have a point in that by serving (and loving) others we are in effect loving Jesus. I just cant figure out why so many people can deny that He even existed while doing what He said to do, but people are funny at times.

I might add that I strongly feel that the supernatural will come out of the closet in the next twenty years and people will see "unexplained" events which I believe will be connected to this. The real and the fake will share the stage globally as society attempts to explain what is happening. And you sciuence types will sweep the belief under the rug, claiming no objective evidence...little realizing that old Phat was right all along and that there is in effect a spiritual reality.

Though I must honestly admit that I would be disappointed...mad even...if I was wrong. Gods presence on earth should be more than simply humans feeding other humans. God is bigger than our collective imagination and conception of reality.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

ringo writes: But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.

Liar.
First of all it is hubris for you to even say such a thing. You limit God to a character in a book (or perhaps think that He speaks through your rational brain). You have no idea what I do.
Assuming that I dont do what he says based on your warped interpretation of what I have written, you need to elaborate.

Of course I'm guessing that you will claim that *you* presented a plain scripture as to what the book says and I challenged it...in which case I was challenging your brain and not the character in the book itself.

Needless to say, your interpretation and my interpretation don't always agree.

ringo,referring to my alleged refusal to listen to jesus writes: Nope. It's a well-documented fact.

Do you specifically remember what He said (as character in a book, by the way)which I refused to do or scoffed at? I only remeember one argument...that of the rich young ruler. IIRC you said that Jesus required for everyone to give all that they had whereas I tried to argue that since you didnt believe that Jesus was real and alive, your argument had no clout...(also because you yourself never gave everything away)

As I said before, my argument was not with Jesus---whom I believe is more than a book character. It was with your ineffective argument.

jar writes: reality doesn't care whether we get mad.

For an atheist, reality is the summation of the physical universe. Rocksa dont cry out. Trees dont weep. Oceans don't moan. And stars do not speak. Reality cant care. Reality has no emotion.

Now...if you want to talk about the father of our Lord Jesus Christ who was, is, and is to come, then we can have a discussion about reality. If, however, you want to introduce Loki, or rabbit, or sonic the hedgehog into the discussion you are crossing the line into fantasy and human imagination. Of course, othyer humans may care about what you or I think, but none of your Fosters Characters can even do so apart from the imagination of the human who wrote about them.

I will give you $100 if you can provide me with a 5 page college freshman analysis with at least 5 footnotes according to Turabian style, at no more than a 20% flag rate for plagiarism. The topic of this term paper is: Compare and contrast the Gospel according to St. Matthew with Bernie Sanders platform for the 2020 Democratic primary election.

We could post it in the Columnists Corner. A couple of questions, though.
1) Where do I get a reasonable and concise summation of the Sanders platform?
2) Do you have a preference from which Bible version I read Matthew? I prefer either NKJV or ESV.

And since we are all altruistic, be we Christian or Humanist, we can agree to give the $100.00 to a worthy charitable cause.

Also...in browsing the web I came up with this version of Sanders basic platform:

quote:

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Bernie Sanders 2020 platform and issues

1) Medicare for All

Defining healthcare proposals can be tricky. This is particularly true in our current moment when Medicare for All is gaining popularity but a number of presidential hopefuls are still taking cash from the healthcare industry.

The essential distinction between a real “Medicare for All” plan and a pretender is the role of private insurance companies: there shouldn’t be one in the real deal.

Under the plans championed by Sanders, Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wa.), Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and other progressives, private insurance companies would no longer play a role in the healthcare needs of Americans. They argue that this is vital because if private insurance companies continue to exert power in the martketplace, the government will have trouble keep prices low for patients.

A “public option,” by contrast, would allow the government to provide a plan that is offered alongside private insurance plans. Under this policy, the price-gouging of private insurance companies would remain a part of American life.

A quick, handy way to tell if other candidates’ plans stack up is if they support a single health program with comprehensive coverage that is free at the point of service and covers everyone while the government oversees pricing.

That is what Bernie Sanders supports.

This quick and dirty analysis does not account for every aspect of healthcare. Sanders’ plan is the truest to “Medicare for All” of the candidates currently in the presidential race, but he has been criticized from the left for some aspects of his plan, including the way it handles long-term care and elder care.

For a full accounting of the differences between the various iterations of Medicare for All, Tim Faust’s, “The Only Guide to Medicare for All That You Will Ever Need” at Splinter is a nice deeper dive.
2) Green New Deal

Similarly, many candidates say that they support a Green New Deal, but they don’t necessarily support the Green New Deal resolution introduced by Ocasio-Cortez. Furthermore, Ocasio-Cortez’s resolution is just a broad framework, and so it is easy for less environmentally friendly candidates to say they support it while still taking cash from corporations and lobbyists working against its goals

When it comes to a Green New Deal, Sanders is the real deal. He is reportedly working on his own version of a Green New Deal, and early speculation is that it is will flesh out Ocasio-Cortez’s version in similarly aggressive terms.

Though we are likely months away from Sanders’ official plan being released, it is expected to dig into how America could move towards zeroing out carbon emissions, while offering many of the same aggressive benchmarks laid out by Ocasio-Cortez.

Reading Ocasio-Cortez’s resolution (introduced alongside Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.)) and progressive thinktank Data for Progress’ 40-page proposal should give you an idea of where Sanders will land.

Ocasio-Cortez’s non-binding resolution contains a variety of measures aimed at curbing climate change and protecting the environment. Some of the proposed measures include overhauling and upgrading America’s infrastructure, investing in renewable energy, expanding public transportation, and jobs training. Expect a similar focus in Sanders’ expanded proposal.
3) $15 minimum wage

Here we have a policy proposal that requires less explanation: Bernie Sanders supports raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

The current minimum wage in the United State is $7.25 an hour and has not been raised since 2009.
4) Bernie Sanders’ tax plan

“How are we going to pay for it?” is a common refrain among Bernie’s opponents. What this ignores is that Bernie has a fairly detailed proposal for how to pay for his programs.

In addition to cuts to military spending, Sanders would raise taxes. It is important to point out that for your average working class person, the modest increase would be mostly offset by getting rid of things like health insurance premiums and student loans.

The bulk of the money to pay for Sanders’ programs would come from wealthy corporations and individuals. Steep increases in capital gains and estate taxes would be accompanied by increases in the marginal tax rate for high-income earners, topping out at a rate of 70 percent for dollars earned in excess of $10 million.

Along with raising the minimum wage, Sanders supports accompanying economic measures aimed at leveling the playing field between the one percent and the rest of Americans.

But taxes aren’t his only plan for the economy. Sanders is known for wanting to break up the big banks and imposing greater regulations on the financial sector. The most recent version of this plan would limit Wall Street banks to holding no more than $584 billion in assets.

Sanders has expressed his support for unions organizing across a variety of industries. Since the 2016 election, he has supported workers at a Mississippi Nissan plant, at Disneyland, and at Amazon struggling for higher wages and better working conditions. He plans on introducing labor-friendly legislation to help the recent resurgence of union strength in America.

Sanders also believes that campaign finance reform aimed at diminishing the role of money in politics is essential. In his email announcing his candidacy to supporters, Sanders specifically called out Citizens United, voter suppression, and gerrymandering. He does not take money from corporate PACs.

The gender pay gap is also a deep concern for Sanders. He hopes to make pay equity a part of his campaign. The Paycheck Fairness Act, which Sanders co-sponsored, would bar employers from retaliating against employees who ask questions about their wages. Sanders also supports paid family leave: he co-sponsored Sen. Kirstin Gillibrand’s (D-N.Y.) bill that would establish universal paid family leave.
5) Free tuition

Bernie Sanders tax plan

When it comes to secondary school, Sanders is a big supporter of teachers unions and public education. He is opposed to charter schools.

Public college tuition should be free according to Sanders. He is also in favor of drastically reducing student loan interest rates. He has previously floated halving all existing student loan interest rates and allowing those with debt to refinance.
6) Criminal justice

A battery of criminal justice reforms is on the table for Sanders, including ending cash bail, abolishing private prisons, legalizing marijuana, and limiting gun sales.

Sanders has also indicated that he would like to launch automatic federal investigations into deaths in police custody.

7) Foreign policy

Generally, Sanders has focused on domestic policy far more than foreign policy during his time in politics. But he has worked on his foreign policy bonafides since 2016. He has been an instrumental part of the effort to end America’s involvement in Saudi aggression in Yemen. However, unlike Reps. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) and Rashida Tlaib (D-Mi.), he has been reticent to speak out in favor of the Palestinian people.

More broadly, Sanders’ foreign policy views are generally anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-colonial, and anti-fascist.

Now, as more and more candidates adopt his long-held stances, the only question is not will Bernie run, but will he win?

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added Sanders Platform

Edited by Phat, : punctuation

jar writes: Please present any evidence or a reasoned argument that might support the thing you claim exists.

For starters, are we in agreement that we are talking about the One whom Jesus referred to as "Father"? Is this not GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen?

If so, you and I both know that there is no objective evidence. Thus, the only thing I can do is to provide a reasoned argument.

Do you have any parameters as to what you consider reasonable?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.