So in other words, if I understand what you write and have written, you believe that there is no God character apart from the one we create...correct? I am talking about GOD, while you are talking about God. If so, explain to me how I would be able to even present a reasoned argument...without objective evidence...in light of your framework?
Add By Edit: Lets see what Tangles link says shall we? Category:Creator gods God God The Father
It appears that in your Critically taught relativistic brain you were taught the first one whereas I was taught the 2nd one, yet you claim to be as Christian as I do. Sometimes human wisdom serves to cloud and confuse a mind while Faith & Belief appear to clear it up. Just sayin...
Edited by Phat, : added Tangles link and a few more comments
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
So in other words, is it fair to say that you...as a believer....believe that GOD exists and is
quote:whatever GOD actually is rather than anything we might wish GOD was.
Correct? So as a "Cradle creedal Christian" do you believe that Jesus is God?
The Wiki article states that a minority of Christians are non-trinitarians, and I'm curious if you believe that the Nicene Creed is Trinitarian or not.
And of course we know beforehand that it is irrelevant what you believe (But only what actually is)
jar writes:
it is irrelevant whether that GOD is Vishnu or The Great A'tuin or Coyote or Jesus or God or Ganesh or pick whatever god creation fits you needs and desires.
I of course believe that it is relevant, but I will have to study more scripture and church history before reaffirming this belief. And thanks for being honest, by the way. You have reasoned argumentation for your beliefs and I respect that.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The reality is that classic Trinitarianism makes no sense and is another example of mutually exclusive dogma. The traditional drawing of the triangle with the nots on the edges and is pointing to the middle just is plain silly; a representation of an impossibility. It's one of those things that can result in lip service but I have never yet found anyone who can provide reasoned or even rational argument that it is a representation of reality rather than fantasy.
I don't know about you but to me it makes perfect sense and is not all that difficult nor mysterious. GOD is the creator of all seen and unseen. Jesus was made man and was human while on earth. When He left,l He promised the Holy Spirit which was a continuation of GOD's personal presence on earth. This allowed for people such as myself to experience a transformation.
I realize that you are uncomfortable with this belief and will likely label it as silly, but for some reason you as a believer kept one foot firmly in the thinking camp of logic,reason, and reality (perhaps out of deference towards all of the other beliefs you learned about) and continued to ask questions rather than settle on any affirmative answer or declaration. You seem to feel more comfortable being an inclusive believer rather than an exclusive believer.
And yes, I agree. The triangle is a silly attempt at symbolic understanding.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I sometimes think that you let your logical mind override your intuition and inner spirit.
ringo,emphatically writes:
YES! YES! YES! Of course I do! Who wouldn't? What's the point of being homo sapiens if we don't use our sapient abilities? If you rely on your intuition, you might as well be a cow.
So are you suggesting that the many of us who have "let go and let God"...become real in our lives think as nothing more than cows? (Or as Buzsaw used to use the term "sheeple". ) Because I am suggesting that there was something in your rational minds that was overly rational...to the point where you just wouldn't let go of the evidence based discipline and allow yourself to see and experience the supernatural. Look, I know the difference between fantasy based wish fulfillment and a genuine mysterious yet shared experience. Critics will emphatically call it brainwashing, but I would call their refusal to accept it as stubborn... and an ode to an excessive belief in evidence and rationality.
Phat writes:
For some reason you despise religion.
No mystery. I despise what is despicable.
What is it that you find so despicable about faith-based (occasionally irrational) belief? Is it the over-reliance on emotion vs dry evidence based fact?Is it the shortcut that Jesus "saves" us and that we thus are not expected to do good works to complete our salvation? (Because if so, I can assure you that at my church anyway we do every bit as much good works in our community as all of jars taking out of the neighbors trash, putting grocery carts back in the corral, or you and your pocket full of spare change.
My only beef with you two is that you refuse to acknowledge the presence of God beyond what the book says...and then have the gall to scold me because I do (and in your opinion don't do enough)
But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.
And if so, neither do you. And you have no excuse any more than I might.
My "interpretation" is just a plain reading. Yours is a self-serving fiction.
Explain to the peanut gallery how my interpretation is self-serving?
ringo writes:
Your argument is with the Jesus in the book. That's the only REAL documentation that you have about Him.
But you prefer to follow the character that you've made up in your head, which is a much less reliable source. Clearly, you prefer your own made-up Jesus because he never asks you to do anything hard.
Documentation is easy enough to produce. Asimov, Stan Lee or any good fiction writer can provide you with documentation about Frodo, or Long John Silver, or whatever character they create. Even here at EvC, your documentation of your so-called "plain reading" is simply further evidence as to what *you* believe that the character says. But until you step out of the boat and walk over to where I and other believers reside, you are mere spectators on shore....content to cling to an ancient book simply to make an argument and loathe to step beyond your rational minds and your limited conception of God.
Oh and one more thing. This Jesus whom you claim I make up most certainly does ask me to do things that are uncomfortable for me to do. He is no mere character in my head nor limited to a book. Perhaps you should become reacquainted with Him if in fact you ever met Him.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Jesus specifically7 tells the rich young ruler that HE lacks one thing. The implication is not that everyone does.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Have you sold all that you have, jar? I rest my case.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I read the four freedoms speech. It was quite good yet I cont6rasted it against a documentary that I saw recently.
The whole myth of cultural relativism is exposed, among other things.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Jesus really didn't think individuals should own anything more than the very basic minimal needs; the clothes they wore and maybe a knife or sword. Jesus was a socialist; he lived in other folks homes, ate other folks food, relied on others to meet his needs.
The thing is, if nobody owned anything, where could He stay? Surely some people needed to own homes.
That is the goal. Our duty is to get as close to that as possible, to do for others.
No argument there.
It's not about how much anyone gives but rather what they deprive others.
Odd that you use that word. As if by owning a second cloak I am depriving someone else of a cloak.
The evolution of the Four Freedoms speech includes the call to create a "moral order" in the US and Worldwide.
Sounds a bit globalist (and socialist/liberal) to me. In fact, I feel that the reason you don't like my documentary is because it is conservative leaning and expresses worry about Islam taking over Europe...which apparently to you relativists poses no problem. Perhaps the irony of this whole discussion is the meaning of what it means to be and represent Christianity. For many of us who were raised as Christian Nationalists, it was easy to proudly proclaim Jesus from a position of strength. When the Yanks and the Brits(traditionally the main idea of "the West") advanced the cause of freedom, it was under the guise of Christianity.
If Islam actually became the dominant global; religion, I strongly feel that there would be friction with Christians...those who were left.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Surely you are not asking this question. If your only answer is "The State" you are more clueless than I thought.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The taxpaying pubic. In the case of a home, however, it is highly doubtful that it would be fairly shared. Homes are for permanent residence. We are not a bunch of vagabonds roaming to and fro on the earth.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Why shouldn't homes be a common property so that there are no homeless except by choice?
What would happen to the homes that are owned, were such an edict put in place? Would the values hold? You are talking of socialist theories in the midst of capitalist realities.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
How would the funds get distributed? Would the people willingly go for such mandatory laws?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The issue is the right to spend other peoples money for them. This is one reason why7 politics is at a perpetual deadlock. Half of the people disagree with your definition of *should*.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Just for the record...before I rant..I want everyone to know what I face as of today.
My 97 year old mother caught Covid. She is about to die. She refuses to eat or drink and her living will states that she prefers not to be kept alive by any mechanical or extraordinary means. They are giving her small doses of morphine and allowing her her wishes. We talk when we can. She is basically just asleep.
My Niece and her entire family tested positive. They live two states away.
I have been stressed out and recently felt unusual symptoms all at once so I called in to work and probably will get tested in a couple of days.
AZPaul3 writes:
How much do you want to follow Jesus?
If not to forsake all possession, preach in the streets, and beg for your survival, then what?
I want to be used by Him to help others. Perhaps I don't believe that every *true* follower needs to give up everything literally. ringo can argue until the sacred cows come home, but I'm not falling for an argument from a man who has ceased considering belief as relevant. Let him find answers from the source rather than from testing and observing me.
How about what the message really meant?
I agree.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
™ Version 4.1
