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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (5th edition)
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 90 (883479)
12-09-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
12-09-2020 1:57 PM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Jesus Camp is an extreme though representative example. Cultural brainwashing is not limited to neither right-wing nor religion, however.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 12-09-2020 1:57 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 12-09-2020 3:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 90 (883485)
12-10-2020 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
12-07-2020 11:37 AM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
Bruce Shelly's excellent book, which you so handily and ignorantly denounce, taught me about this man, character, and subsequent movement: Waldo Sought a Truer Faith Reflecting on the many years spent arguing with you and jar, I am struck by the massive ignorance which both of you seem to have regarding the possibility that a living God interacts with humanity. Critical thinking limits you and shoehorns you into a way of thought that never considers un-evidenced events.
jar writes:
A truly great and significant book relating to both Christian Church history but more importantly to the Hebrew genesis of the stories that became the Old Testament under Christianity is Asimov's Guide o the Bible. Imminently readable it outlines the societal, political and economic forces that drove the creation of the Judaic faiths; Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible? I could care less what Asimov's credentials are...he is speaking on a subject with which he has no familiarity. He does not have the Holy Spirit nor do you.
From Wiki:
He was president of the American Humanist Association.[
From that organizations definition:
quote:
The American Humanist Association (AHA) is a non-profit organization in the United States that advances secular humanism, a philosophy of life that, without theism or other supernatural beliefs, affirms the ability and responsibility of human beings to lead personal lives of ethical fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.
This is too funny, but the lot of you would wholeheartedly agree that there is none more qualified to explain a book about God and religion than the president of the Humanists!
Wiki writes:
Asimov was an atheist, a humanist, and a rationalist.[113] He did not oppose religious conviction in others, but he frequently railed against superstitious and pseudoscientific beliefs that tried to pass themselves off as genuine science. During his childhood, his father and mother observed the traditions of Orthodox Judaism, though not as stringently as they had in Petrovichi; they did not, however, force their beliefs upon young Isaac. Thus, he grew up without strong religious influences, coming to believe that the Torah represented Hebrew mythology in the same way that the Iliad recorded Greek mythology.[240] When he was 13, he chose not to have a bar mitzvah.
I am not in any way saying that I dont respect Asimovs overall intellectual capability. He was a very good science fiction writer. I am simply stating that I in no way would bother reading his synopsis of the Bible as it would corrupt my thinking. Shelley, the guy whom I'm reading, is well respected among Christians and secularists alike. His book is required reading in many a college classroom.
More on Asimov, from Wiki:
Asmovs quote writes:
I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.
He does have a wry sense of humor that you guys would appreciate. I do also.
If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 12-07-2020 11:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-10-2020 9:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 12-10-2020 11:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 47 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2020 4:17 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 90 (883492)
12-10-2020 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
12-10-2020 11:18 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Lets recap for a moment. Correct me if I'm wronly representing what you say or have said.
  • You once were religious and, like me, claim that you at one time believed in God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You allegedly were transformed through logic, reason, reality and evidence based thinking.
    Evidently you began to believe in something stronger than the Creator of all seen and unseen...or am I wrong? Do you have any belief in such a Deity at all these days?
    My point with Phat was that the mind does change itself as a response to the stimuli that it receives, which is what you are saying.
    The mind will feed on whatever zeitgeist(spirit of the age) that it is fed with. The Holy Spirit is preferable to the spirit of the age, which is chock full of information yet lacking in truth or love.
    And the mind does not need an external entity like a holy spook to change it.
    The mind will only transform through a transformative higher power.
    There are basically only two. The Holy Spirit
    The fake spirit of the new age. Take your pick and choose wisely.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by ringo, posted 12-10-2020 11:18 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 11:32 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 49 of 90 (883523)
    12-14-2020 3:15 AM


    The Age of Jesus and the Apostles 6BC-AD 70
    quote:
    Christianity's roots go back into Jewish history long before the birth of Jesus Christ. It was Jesus of Nazareth, however, who attacked established Judaism and brought a renewal movement into history's light early in the first century. After his crucifixion under Pontius Pilate, a Roman official, Jesus teachings spread throughout the Mediterranean area. An apostle named Paul was especially influential. He stressed God's gift of salvation for all men and thus led in Christianity's emergence from Palestinian Judaism to a position as a universal religion.
    As jar has also stated, the author says that "Jesus was a Jew. He came from a Jewish family; he studied the Jewish scriptures; he observed the Jewish religion. Any serious study of his life makes this so clear that many people have asked if Jesus ever intended to create that company of followers that we call the church." The author delves into this question in depth.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 50 of 90 (883524)
    12-14-2020 3:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by dwise1
    12-10-2020 4:17 PM


    Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    phat,addressing jar in response to plugging Asimovs Book writes:
    Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?
    dwise1 writes:
    Yes, of course! And far better than most believers ever could. Because a believer would just repeat the fairy tales he had been raised on instead of digging into the actual history and investigating the external sources that the Bible had drawn on (eg, the Babylonian creation and flood myths, the Code of Hammurabi). Instead of seeking information and the truth, he would have a vested interest in supporting his fairy tales, just as creationists and Trump lemmings do.
    Upon listening to this history, I found what appears to be a reputable author/historian and a well researched book. Christian History has many characters after the original Apostles passed on, and while much of the mythos was built from them, I fail to see the connections to the Babylonian myths which of you speak except through the idea of obvious inference. I do not believe that the accounts from the Apostles and original authors wer made up in any way and I feel that this assertion is somewhat misleading and false. I can deduce that there would be some who wished to discredit the stories in the Bible and could see criticism coming from that direction, however. Granted I will admit to some bias and do not approach this subject without some degree of presumption. I believe that Jesus existeed and that He did have quite an influence within tyhe local areas in which He grew up in. I also know that He had many detractors and many outright enemies though I see no logical reason why this would be so apart from the fact that His message was disrupting a lot of peoples livelihood. I will take this Book Nook topic and go over what the author discusses and we can discuss the honesty, scholarship, and facts as we discuss each section. The sections (which contain several Chapters each) are labeled as follows:
  • The Age of Jesus and the Apostles 6BC-AD 70
  • The Age of Catholic Christianity 70-312
  • The Age of the Christian Roman Empire 312-590
  • The Christian Middle Ages 590-1517
  • The Age of the Reformation 1517-1648
    Lets discuss these first. To begin with, I do not see the Bible as a fairy tale. I do, however, see the many disagreements as to the proper theology and interpretation of the book and its central character throughout church history. These first 5 sections represent 1650 years of church history. The US is nearly 245 years old, barely 1/6 of that total. Feel free to ask me what I learned about each of these eras thus far. I'm still reading.
    Edited by Phat, : refined focus

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2020 4:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 52 of 90 (911947)
    08-04-2023 8:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
    12-15-2020 11:32 AM


    Church History In Plain Language (5th edition)
    Gosh I wish ringo was still around. I just read his last (and ongoing) replies to me in this topic.
    In the meanwhile, I have been reading the revised edition of this 596 page book. Bruce Shelleys son, Marshall Shelley, was the revision editor. There are some interesting observations of Christianity in the global South vs Christianity in North America.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 11:32 AM ringo has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 53 of 90 (911948)
    08-04-2023 8:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
    12-08-2020 5:52 PM


    Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    Anglagard is another one I miss. The primary reason that I came back to this thread is because I have been listening to the revised book version on Audible. You and I might find an amicable argument discussion as we pause to honor two old friends...ringo and anglagard. Are you game? (edited in light of newfound respect and awareness of your inner pain)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2020 5:52 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 90 (911949)
    08-04-2023 8:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by dwise1
    12-10-2020 4:17 PM


    Church History In Plain Language (5th Edition)
    Phat, replying to jar writes:
    Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?
    dwise1 writes:
    Yes, of course! And far better than most believers ever could. Because a believer would just repeat the fairy tales he had been raised on instead of digging into the actual history and investigating the external sources that the Bible had drawn on (eg, the Babylonian creation and flood myths, the Code of Hammurabi). Instead of seeking information and the truth, he would have a vested interest in supporting his fairy tales, just as creationists and Trump lemmings do.
    I'm inviting you to reconnect also.
    As for the sources, keep in mind that literally everyone has sources of information...more-so today than ever before in History. Biblical Creationists often limit their sources and never study the actual history of their religion. You are well aware of this! As far as Trump lemmings, that's a whole 'nother topic!
    dwise1 writes:
    For example, whom would you trust to give you a factual history of the founding of Mormonism? A non-Mormon scholar? Or a believing Mormon who would insist on the literal truth of the golden plates and Joseph Smith's ability to translate them through mystical means?
    For the record, I believe that Shelley and his son are both somewhat objective. They are no holy rollers!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2020 4:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 55 of 90 (911950)
    08-04-2023 8:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
    12-09-2020 5:17 PM


    The Brainwashing Of My Dad
    I watched that documentary, largely because I have come to trust your objectivity.
    Today's media is like navigating a minefield.
    I watch it all...and am limiting my conclusions while I gather more information.
    Your documentary link was in my opinion quite accurate. I have a friend who now gets angry about politics just as her Dad did. Food for thought.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2020 5:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 56 of 90 (911979)
    08-06-2023 9:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
    12-10-2020 3:58 PM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    AZ writes:
    There is no hidden supernatural force that can be shown to be transforming human minds into good little Christian Soldiers.
    I have an off-topic question for you. But first, let me just say that I had never really heard you open up about Viet Nam before. I cant imagine the psychological damage that that war (and any war, really) inflicted on you and my heart is slowly waking up to this chapetr from your past. I know that I invited you and Dwise1 back to this topic, but I think that there are some deep wounds regarding Church History in the context of wars in general and human belief that perhaps we could discuss. If you have taught me one thing recently(and I mean this in all seriousness) its that your reasons for being an anti theist...in light of what you know and have not shared with us yet about the psychology of war *does* very much stem from religion(belief and actions)of a nation and a people. I know that Candle2 claims to have suffered as a child and that God saved him, but I see his plight through your eyes. He was rescued by a reformed cult and has been thoroughly indoctrinated with easy answers which resonate with GDR. It took me a minute to see a glimpse into your "pedo-cult comment which "offended" GDR, but in my opinion your rant was not directed at him but at organized religion in general. I feel for you, AZ. You are an honorable man and what you have done and needed to do should never be looked down on by a nation whose God is intrinsically and intimately connected with the US Dollar.
    On a similar off topic note, do you think that the war in Ukraine is doing the same thing to the young Russians (and Ukrainians) that are fighting for ideologies which are far above their pay grades?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2020 3:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2023 4:14 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 90 (912049)
    08-11-2023 1:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by AZPaul3
    08-06-2023 4:14 PM


    Back To Church History In A Moment
    OK, I'll respectfully steer clear of your personal observations of war. Just know that I care about your mental health as much as you care about mine. Im still puzzled why you are so up in arms about religion corrupting human values.
    After all, if you can wish away all of the gods including the Creator of all seen and unseen, can you as easily wish away the stars in the Heavens? Do you regret not being more of a pacifist or were you in fact one?
    One Epiphany which shook my faith was years ago in 2001. 9-11 had just happened and Dr.Charles Stanley had a sermon about when he was a little boy and saw the planes taking off to war in 1941. In essence, his sermon hinted that God favored a just war. We can ask if there is such a thing. If a foreign nation sunk one of the US aircraft carriers that we spent billions building and we lost the whole crew, would that justify going to war? Or do we simply let the aggressive ideology push its way through the culture we grew up in?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2023 4:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 3:14 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 90 (912052)
    08-11-2023 4:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by AZPaul3
    08-11-2023 3:14 AM


    Re: Who Sank Your Aircraft Carrier?
    AZ writes:
    How do you so casually separate an action from a reason? Why did they sink your aircraft carrier? Was it someplace it shouldn’t have been? Interfering in something not it’s business? Was it killing people and needed to be stopped? Or was it trying to save people from the bad guys?
    Lets take Taiwan, for example. My Carrier is involved in training drills with Japan and Taiwan. China claims the region yet the others also live there. The US has pledged to defend Taiwan. Is War justifiable if Taiwan is attacked? There are 300 million professing Christians in China. Is this war a religious thing if it occurs?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 3:14 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 10:31 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 62 of 90 (912058)
    08-11-2023 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Theodoric
    08-11-2023 10:31 AM


    Re: Facts only please
    Well...thats a hard statistic to nail down.
    Wiki:
    In 2018, the Chinese government declared that there are over 44 million Christians in China. On the other hand, some international Christian organizations estimate that there are tens of millions more, who choose not to publicly identify as such.
    I had heard the 300 million figure and didnt bother to verify it, but I do suspect that Christians do in fact choose not to publicly
    identify as such. AZ is not a Christian and in fact charges that war is indirectly caused by Christianity. My argument is that war is caused by many other things than ideology.
    So I will retract the 300 million figure in deference to your "facts" mantra, but you have a warped view of reality anyway.
    Interestingly enough, the Pew research center has the following graph, if Percy will let me link it.
    <link removed>
    Apparently not!
    The graph can be found online.
    quote:
    The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
    If current trends continue, by 2050 …
    The number of Muslims will nearly equal the number of Christians around the world.
    Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.
    The global Buddhist population will be about the same size it was in 2010, while the Hindu and Jewish populations will be larger than they are today.
    In Europe, Muslims will make up 10% of the overall population.
    India will retain a Hindu majority but also will have the largest Muslim population of any country in the world, surpassing Indonesia.
    In the United States, Christians will decline from more than three-quarters of the population in 2010 to two-thirds in 2050, and Judaism will no longer be the largest non-Christian religion. Muslims will be more numerous in the U.S. than people who identify as Jewish on the basis of religion.
    Four out of every 10 Christians in the world will live in sub-Saharan Africa.
    These are among the global religious trends highlighted in new demographic projections by the Pew Research Center. The projections take into account the current size and geographic distribution of the world’s major religions, age differences, fertility and mortality rates, international migration and patterns in conversion.
    Now I will discuss what the book says about these future trends, as it has had a revision by Bruce Shelley's son, Marshall Shelley.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 10:31 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 2:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 63 of 90 (912059)
    08-11-2023 1:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
    12-09-2020 5:17 PM


    Religious versus Secular "Brainwashing"
    dwise1 writes:
    Part of the effectiveness of that brainwashing derives from isolating the victim from other perspectives and/or reality, AKA "placing them in a bubble". FOX and talk radio do that in part by not even mentioning facts that the rest of the world see unfolding in real time, or else by discrediting other sources in the minds of their victims. Basically, how cults work their brainwashing magic on their followers.
    One issue that you and I can discuss is whether Cultural "Brainwashing" is limited to cults in general, mainstream religions (and if so is it all of them?) and non-religious sources such as the PRC (Peoples Republic of China) government.
    Part of the effectiveness of that brainwashing derives from isolating the victim from other perspectives and/or reality, AKA "placing them in a bubble". FOX and talk radio do that in part by not even mentioning facts that the rest of the world see unfolding in real time, or else by discrediting other sources in the minds of their victims. Basically, how cults work their brainwashing magic on their followers.
    So to begin with, what in your mind constitutes a cult? While I wont defend Jesus Camp in any way, I resent the insinuation that religion in general is divorced from reality.
    dwise1 writes:
    A characteristic of right-wing authoritarians (high RWAs -- everybody is on his RWA scale but rate differently) is that they classify the world into their own in-group and the out-group of all others, isolating themselves from other groups taking on a them-vs-us mentality that can verge on xenophobia.
    Point taken. But allow me to discuss the book.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2020 5:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 90 (912080)
    08-12-2023 3:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
    08-11-2023 2:41 PM


    Re: Facts only please
    OK...
    AZPaul3:
    they are a major player in supporting and recruiting for their war lord’s benefit.
    It seems you support the antichrist agenda for a one world religion free governing body. Silly humans. Tricks are for kids.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 2:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 08-12-2023 8:34 PM Phat has replied
     Message 68 by Percy, posted 08-13-2023 7:30 AM Phat has replied

      
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