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Author Topic:   Is witness testimony really to be never taken seriously? Ever?
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3638
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 1 of 21 (883502)
12-11-2020 8:18 AM


I recently came across the following news.

Former Head of Israel’s Space Program: The Aliens Asked Not To Be Revealed, Humanity Not Yet Ready

quote:
The UFOs have asked not to publish that they are here, humanity is not ready yet. Trump was on the verge of revealing, but the aliens in the Galactic Federation are saying: Wait, let people calm down first. They don’t want to start mass hysteria. They want to first make us sane and understanding.

They have been waiting for humanity to evolve and reach a stage where we will generally understand what space and spaceships are. There’s an agreement between the US government and the aliens. They signed a contract with us to do experiments here. They, too, are researching and trying to understand the whole fabric of the universe, and they want us as helpers. There’s an underground base in the depths of Mars, where their representatives are, and also our American astronauts.

If I had come up with what I’m saying today five years ago, I would have been hospitalized. Wherever I’ve gone with this in academia, they’ve said: the man has lost his mind. Today they’re already talking differently. I have nothing to lose. I’ve received my degrees and awards, I am respected in universities abroad, where the trend is also changing.


Here are his credentials.

Haim Eshed - Wikipedia

quote:
Haim Eshed (Hebrew: חיים אשד; born 1933)[1] is a retired brigadier general in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), professor at the Asher Institute for Space Research at the Technion – Israel Institute of Technology and former director of space programs for the Israel Ministry of Defense for nearly 30 years.[2][3][4][5] He was also an officer in the Israeli Military Intelligence.

In 1967 Eshed was awarded the Chief of Staff Citation, the highest non-combat decoration awarded by the IDF. Throughout his career he also received the Israel Defense Prize - the highest civilian defense honor of the State of Israel - three times, but the reasons remain classified.

Eshed served at the highly secretive Unit 81, which provided technological solutions to the IDF's Military Intelligence Directorate.

Career
He holds a bachelor's degree in electronics engineering from the Technion, a master's degree and a doctorate in aeronautical engineering.

In 1979, as a colonel in Israel's Military Intelligence Directorate, Eshed proposed the establishment of an independent satellite capability in order to collect intelligence from the Sinai after the withdrawal of Egyptian forces.[6]

He was space director during the 2007 launch of the spy satellite Ofek-7, which he said would help with "the Iranian issue".[7]


I know, you guys here along with most other "rational" people will automatically label him as a crackpot.

Reading about this made me realize something. I've been told all my adult life that human testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence in science and logic. Is this really written in stone? Will credentials and a lifetime of achievements count for nothing at all?

I have no idea where this should go as I haven't been on this forum for a long time.


If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 12-11-2020 1:56 PM coffee_addict has responded
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 21 (883504)
12-11-2020 8:29 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is witness testimony really to be never taken seriously? Ever? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

I put you here Lammy. It could well have gone several places, but I felt as if any speculation on alien life certainly relates to Human origins.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 21 (883505)
12-11-2020 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 8:18 AM


Why was Trump even notified?
I suppose it was because he was president, but I feel as if the aliens should have bypassed him.
The UFOs have asked not to publish that they are here, humanity is not ready yet. Trump was on the verge of revealing, but the aliens in the Galactic Federation are saying: Wait, let people calm down first. They don’t want to start mass hysteria. They want to first make us sane and understanding.(from Wiki)

According to Isaac Ben-Israel, current chairman of the Israel Space Agency, Eshed went "too far" with his claims, but "his seriousness shouldn’t be questioned and his standing as a leader in his field remains intact"

Hain Eshed certainly has rational credentials, but the topic is incredulous and un-evidenced. What does your rational scientific mind make of it all?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 8:18 AM coffee_addict has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 8:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3638
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 21 (883506)
12-11-2020 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-11-2020 8:35 AM


Re: Why was Trump even notified?
I am reminded of things like ball lightning, upside down lightning, cosmic ray visual phenomena, etc. All were reported by people with a lot of credentials and all were dismissed by the scientific community. That is until they were proven to be real phenomena.

As a rational person, I keep my mind open to all possibilities.

I have a story. Was going to make a separate topic, but what the heck I'll put it here.

After being an engineer for many years I finally quit and created my own company. I now own a real estate investment company.

Late last year, we bought a victorian era built house. Very big. It is one of those houses where there's a front staircase to the second floor for the family and there's a back one for the servants. Over the winter, I had a couple of employees work on the interior of the house for restoration. They kept seeing what they thought was a woman through the up stair windows. They called the police on multiple occasions thinking it was an intruder or a squatter. At one point, I brought in more guys to secure the place. We checked every corner of it. Attic space. Basement. Crawlspace. Etc. There are 3 doors into the house, and we secured all of them. Those guys kept seeing some woman. Eventually, I just told them don't worry about it finish the damn work.

In the spring time when it was warm enough, I hired a couple of painters to paint the outside of the house. These guys never met the other guys. Completely different party. I set them up and left to go to another project site. One of them called me after about an hour and asked me if I had someone else working inside the house? I said no, just you guys there. Why? He said the other guy said he saw some woman through the windows upstairs. I said nah just keep painting. A few hours later he called again and said hey are you sure there's nobody else here? He was on a ladder painting and looking through the window he saw some woman walking in the hallway. They went in to check it out but didn't find anyone.

Fast forward a couple months later. I had rented the house out to a nice family. A couple months after they moved in, the husband called me and asked if while we were working on the house if we saw anything weird? I said no, why? He said even though he's never seen anything his wife been swearing up and down that several times she saw some woman through the up stair windows but nobody was home. One of the daughters also said the same.

To be clear. I have never seen anything personally. I just find it odd that 3 different groups of people who didn't know each other saw the same thing through the same windows.

It's stuff like this that has made me question the belief that eye witness testimony is NEVER reliable. Why/how would 3 different groups of people who didn't know each other make up the same story about some woman through the same windows?

Why would someone with a boat load of credentials all of a sudden make up crackpot claims about aliens just for book sales?


If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16950
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 5 of 21 (883507)
12-11-2020 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 8:18 AM


Witness testimony?
The claims appear to be fairly standard nonsense that’s been circulating for decades.

So, before we get to his credentials the question is, what does he claim to have actually witnessed? For all the article tells me he could just be parroting claims he’s read in books or in the internet.

There are obvious financial gains to be made, too.

As well as the fact that the Russians have been known to spread UFO disinformation.

quote:
Reading about this made me realize something. I've been told all my adult life that human testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence in science and logic. Is this really written in stone? Will credentials and a lifetime of achievements count for nothing at all?

Nobody says that credentials count for nothing, but they really don’t count for enough to make this believable. The plausibility is very low. We don’t know where he got this “information” from (although we can guess, and it’s not from anywhere credible). We don’t have any corroborating evidence that’s worth anything. So you’d have to be pretty gullible to just believe it on the basis of credentials.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 8:18 AM coffee_addict has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 9:18 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 21 (883508)
12-11-2020 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
12-11-2020 9:03 AM


Re: Witness testimony?
I might add that though I am a believer and prone to accept supernatural stories, I will put on my thinking cap (critical thinking and skepticism) and evaluate it from that perspective.
1) Lammys credentials. Being a critical thinker and science mind himself, I would assume that Lam too is skeptical. Being involved in Real Estate, Lam also has a financial interest in verifying(or squashing) a story such as this one. In my mind, his jury is still out.
2) Plausibility. A story such as this is implausible but would gain interest thee more that actual verifiable independent confirmations of such a story are confirmed. In addition, a mention of the alleged origin of the female figure may be persuasive.
For instance, was there an untimely death in the past history of this house?
3) Gullibility. Again, as I have said before, some people..(myself included) are more likely to accept unevidenced answers than are those who are fully skeptical by nature and evidence based thinkers.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2020 9:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16950
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 21 (883509)
12-11-2020 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-11-2020 9:18 AM


Re: Witness testimony?
Well I’m talking about the UFO nonsense.

The report on seeing women or a woman suggests that something happened there, but there isn’t enough to say what it was. Which is not nearly enough to convince me that there was anything supernatural going on.


This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3638
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 21 (883510)
12-11-2020 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-11-2020 9:18 AM


Re: Witness testimony?
Dude, the house was built in the Victorian era. I'm not going to spend time looking thru the 130 year history of it to look for an untimely death. Been passed thru many owners.

Edit.

Please don't use the word supernatural. Lightning was once supernatural. Ball lightning, sleep paralysis, etc. All were deemed supernatural and dismissed as crackpot.

I believe that even unexplained things are natural. To proclaim something as supernatural implies that you know everything there is to know about the natural world. And this is hubris beyond any level I can describe.

Edited by coffee_addict, : No reason given.


If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 9:18 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5974
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 9 of 21 (883511)
12-11-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 8:18 AM


bullshit
Why? Why does the internet do this? Why do humans do this?

Such bullshit piled on bullshit layered on more bullshit.

Evidence of this fairy tale is non-existent. And the evidence of physical law precludes most of this crap from being probable let alone actual.

Credentials mean nothing. Evidence rules over accomplishment and no such evidence is presented. The Lord Kelvin is dead and authority can no longer dictate results. Evidence. Evidence required.

Laud his history all you want, it means nothing without the most extraordinary evidence for this most extraordinary claim.

Nothing supernatural here. Evidently nothing real here either.

It’s bullshit! I call bullshit. I call big bullshit.

Show me his evidence. All of it. If he can’t … he has nothing. Go home.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 8:18 AM coffee_addict has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 2:25 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3638
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 21 (883512)
12-11-2020 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by AZPaul3
12-11-2020 1:56 PM


Re: bullshit
I think you completely misunderstood the thread topic. It is not about UFO and Haim Eshed. In fact, your kneejerk reaction is a perfect demo of what I was hinting.

If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 12-11-2020 1:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5974
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 11 of 21 (883513)
12-11-2020 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 8:55 AM


Re: Why was Trump even notified?
Now that we're done with this Israeli alien let's move on to testimony and evidence.

Eye witness testimony can be evidence but only when accompanied by other physical evidence in support. Problems with such testimony usually center on its heavy reliance on subjective selective memory, ulterior motives and just plain human error.

Still, eye witness testimony can be valuable in informing where physical evidence may be and its form.

Three witnesses testify that Mr. A and Mr. B went into a room, shut the door, a shot was heard and out walked Mr. A while Mr. B lay on the floor dead. If this is the only testimony available then there is only a subjective conclusion that can be reached. If the cops find a gun with fingerprint and DNA that do NOT match the alleged perp THAT hard non-subjective evidence takes precedence over all three eye witnesses.

Yes, eye witness testimony is valuable in showing probability, but, any hard physical evidence rules regardless of the testimony of the witnesses.

Expert witnesses of professional standing can certainly sway an argument but, yet again, any hard physical evidence takes precedence over any such testimony.

Why/how would 3 different groups of people who didn't know each other make up the same story about some woman through the same windows?

Don't know. Not enough evidence to reach a viable conclusion. But what we do know from millennia of experience and research is that it most probably isn't a ghost. Well, at least not Casper with his big barrel of popcorn. But, probably not a ghost or an alien or a disembodied energy orb evolved from the advanced evolution of some cockroaches.

Why would someone with a boat load of credentials all of a sudden make up crackpot claims about aliens just for book sales?

eh ... for the book sales?

... or ...

... the same brilliant intellectual disconnect that happened to Fred Hoyle?


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 8:55 AM coffee_addict has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5974
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 21 (883514)
12-11-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 2:25 PM


Re: bullshit
You see a snake, you stomp on it.

To you the topic may be testimony which I hope I've answered in a crossing post. To me it's grandiose claims of improbable events without the foundation of evidence.

This is precisely the kind of BS that gets too much publicity as probable in our culture. It is the epitome of sloppy critical thinking. This crap story should not even be in the cultural imagination of our species. It is crap.

That must be dealt with before any other consideration.

Sorry to blow up your thread but there are some intellectual poisons that must be countered at every turn.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 12-11-2020 2:25 PM coffee_addict has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 13 of 21 (883516)
12-11-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
12-11-2020 8:55 AM


Re: Why was Trump even notified?
First, we know for a fact that the government does not have any aliens (of the extraterrestrial variety). If there were any, then Trump would have blabbed about them within the first month. He was sworn to secrecy? Since when did he ever keep a promise?

"Alien" also refers to foreigners. As a child in the 50's I watched Superman on TV and read DC comic books which regularly featured extraterrestrial aliens. Finally one day I asked my mother and she assured me that Superman and aliens were not real. OK, I could deal with that. At that time, non-citizens were required to go to the post office to get a registration card to fill out and submit at the end of every year. So there I was, knowing that aliens don't exist, watching this public service announcement reminding all aliens that they must register with the government. "Mom!?! But you told me they don't exist!"

It has been suggested that infrasound could be involved in ghost sightings. It seems that 19 Hz is a resonant frequency of the human eyeball, so a signal at that frequency can induce visual hallucinations. It helps if there's a room with the right dimensions to make it a resonating cavity. Infrasound can also be felt by the body triggering emotional responses such as uneasiness or dread. I'm just not sure why such visual hallucinations should manifest as a female figure.


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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5974
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 14 of 21 (883517)
12-11-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dwise1
12-11-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Why was Trump even notified?
I'm just not sure why such visual hallucinations should manifest as a female figure.

Maybe a pareidolic mirage from the reflections in the windows? Interesting. And maybe a periodic event nearby, like a small tremor or a little used bridge, that sets off the initial vibrations?

Oh, to be a multi-billionaire with nothing to do. Like to set up some equipment for a while.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dwise1, posted 12-11-2020 4:28 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by dwise1, posted 12-11-2020 10:17 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 21 (883518)
12-11-2020 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by AZPaul3
12-11-2020 4:42 PM


Re: Why was Trump even notified?
I read an account of a haunted building in the UK where people would see a woman in the window. One room inside was especially haunted with everybody who entered experiencing dread or suddenly feeling quite ill. It was serving as a resonating body and the white noise driving it was tracked down to an air conditioning unit.

Perhaps slightly related was the exploding-chicken-heads story that was part of programming lore in the 1990's. In the programmer's guide for Borland C++ 3.1, the page on the sound() function had this sample program:

quote:
/* Emits a 7-Hz tone for 10 seconds.

True story: 7 Hz is the resonant frequency of a chicken's skull cavity. This was determined empirically in Australia, where a new factory generating 7-Hz tones was located too close to a chicken ranch: When the factory started up, all the chickens died.

Your PC may not be able to emit a 7-Hz tone.
*/


#include <dos.h>

int main(void)
{
sound(7);
delay(10000);
nosound();
return 0;
}


Edited by dwise1, : Added "or suddenly feeling quite ill"


This message is a reply to:
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