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Author Topic:   What Is The Holy Spirit
ringo
Member
Posts: 19251
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 61 of 176 (883475)
12-09-2020 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
12-08-2020 2:24 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

Do you specifically remember what He said (as character in a book, by the way)which I refused to do or scoffed at? I only remeember one argument...that of the rich young ruler.


Isn't one example enough?

Phat writes:

IIRC you said that Jesus required for everyone to give all that they had whereas I tried to argue that since you didnt believe that Jesus was real and alive, your argument had no clout...


Again, I don't have to believe that Frodo was real to know what he said in the book. Address that.

But if YOU believe the Jesus character was/is real, then YOU should certainly do what He said, shouldn't you?

Phat writes:

As I said before, my argument was not with Jesus---whom I believe is more than a book character.


Your argument is with the Jesus in the book. That's the only REAL documentation that you have about Him.

But you prefer to follow the character that you've made up in your head, which is a much less reliable source. Clearly, you prefer your own made-up Jesus because he never asks you to do anything hard.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 2:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 8:13 AM ringo has responded
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM ringo has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2335
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 62 of 176 (883489)
12-10-2020 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
12-08-2020 6:01 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

1) Where do I get a reasonable and concise summation of the Sanders platform?

From Sanders, here

2) Do you have a preference from which Bible version I read Matthew? I prefer either NKJV or ESV.

Any common standard version is fine, so either is acceptable.

And since we are all altruistic, be we Christian or Humanist, we can agree to give the $100.00 to a worthy charitable cause.

Sure: DAV Charitable Services Trust or anything that has a perfect score on Charity Navigator.

That's the spirit. Good luck.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 6:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 63 of 176 (883499)
12-11-2020 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
12-09-2020 11:17 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

I sometimes think that you let your logical mind override your intuition and inner spirit.

ringo,emphatically writes:

YES! YES! YES! Of course I do! Who wouldn't? What's the point of being homo sapiens if we don't use our sapient abilities? If you rely on your intuition, you might as well be a cow.

So are you suggesting that the many of us who have "let go and let God"...become real in our lives think as nothing more than cows? (Or as Buzsaw used to use the term "sheeple". ) Because I am suggesting that there was something in your rational minds that was overly rational...to the point where you just wouldn't let go of the evidence based discipline and allow yourself to see and experience the supernatural. Look, I know the difference between fantasy based wish fulfillment and a genuine mysterious yet shared experience. Critics will emphatically call it brainwashing, but I would call their refusal to accept it as stubborn... and an ode to an excessive belief in evidence and rationality.

Phat writes:

For some reason you despise religion.


No mystery. I despise what is despicable.
What is it that you find so despicable about faith-based (occasionally irrational) belief? Is it the over-reliance on emotion vs dry evidence based fact?Is it the shortcut that Jesus "saves" us and that we thus are not expected to do good works to complete our salvation? (Because if so, I can assure you that at my church anyway we do every bit as much good works in our community as all of jars taking out of the neighbors trash, putting grocery carts back in the corral, or you and your pocket full of spare change.

My only beef with you two is that you refuse to acknowledge the presence of God beyond what the book says...and then have the gall to scold me because I do (and in your opinion don't do enough)

But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.

And if so, neither do you. And you have no excuse any more than I might.

My "interpretation" is just a plain reading. Yours is a self-serving fiction.
Explain to the peanut gallery how my interpretation is self-serving?

ringo writes:

Your argument is with the Jesus in the book. That's the only REAL documentation that you have about Him.

But you prefer to follow the character that you've made up in your head, which is a much less reliable source. Clearly, you prefer your own made-up Jesus because he never asks you to do anything hard.

Documentation is easy enough to produce. Asimov, Stan Lee or any good fiction writer can provide you with documentation about Frodo, or Long John Silver, or whatever character they create. Even here at EvC, your documentation of your so-called "plain reading" is simply further evidence as to what *you* believe that the character says. But until you step out of the boat and walk over to where I and other believers reside, you are mere spectators on shore....content to cling to an ancient book simply to make an argument and loathe to step beyond your rational minds and your limited conception of God.

Oh and one more thing. This Jesus whom you claim I make up most certainly does ask me to do things that are uncomfortable for me to do. He is no mere character in my head nor limited to a book. Perhaps you should become reacquainted with Him if in fact you ever met Him.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 12-09-2020 11:17 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 12:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 64 of 176 (883528)
12-15-2020 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
12-09-2020 11:17 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 12-09-2020 11:17 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 10:44 AM Phat has responded
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 12:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33437
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 65 of 176 (883529)
12-15-2020 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
12-15-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.

Where in the text do you find such an exemption?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 11:04 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 66 of 176 (883530)
12-15-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
12-15-2020 10:44 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Jesus specifically7 tells the rich young ruler that HE lacks one thing. The implication is not that everyone does.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 10:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 2:44 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19251
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 67 of 176 (883532)
12-15-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
12-11-2020 8:13 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

So are you suggesting that the many of us who have "let go and let God"...become real in our lives think as nothing more than cows?


How is that even a question? If you refuse to use your logical mind, you might as well be a cow.

Phat writes:

Because I am suggesting that there was something in your rational minds that was overly rational...


You can "suggest" until the cows come home but you have nothing to back up your claim. "Overly rational"? Isn't that like being "overly healthy"? Can you have less than nothing wrong with you?

Phat writes:

...to the point where you just wouldn't let go of the evidence based discipline and allow yourself to see and experience the supernatural.


If the "supernatural" had any reality to it, the "evidence-based discipline" would see it. Your pretense that the "supernatural" hides from evidence-based discipline is a huge cop-out. As I keep reminding you, that excuse applies to everything you don't believe in too: the leprechauns are hiding from us just like your God is.

Phat writes:

Look, I know the difference between fantasy based wish fulfillment and a genuine mysterious yet shared experience.


Clearly not.

Phat writes:

What is it that you find so despicable about faith-based (occasionally irrational) belief?


How about the lies, for a start? Why do you have to lie about your own Holy Book to prop up your fantasies?

Phat writes:

Is it the over-reliance on emotion vs dry evidence based fact?


There's a place for emotion. It should never over-ride evidence.

Phat writes:

Is it the shortcut that Jesus "saves" us and that we thus are not expected to do good works to complete our salvation?


How is that not despicable?

Phat writes:

Because if so, I can assure you that at my church anyway we do every bit as much good works in our community as all of jars taking out of the neighbors trash, putting grocery carts back in the corral, or you and your pocket full of spare change.


As I have pointed out too many times to count, it isn't how much you give that counts; it's how much you hold back. Holding back indicates a lack of trust in God.

Phat writes:

My only beef with you two is that you refuse to acknowledge the presence of God beyond what the book says...


And you refuse to acknowledge the presence of leprechauns. What's the difference?

Phat writes:

...and then have the gall to scold me because I do...


I have the gall to point out that you're inconsistent. You make a distinction between God and leprechauns.

Phat writes:

... (and in your opinion don't do enough)


It isn't my opinion. It's Jesus' opinion.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

But you don't do what He says. You even deny that He says it.


And if so, neither do you.

Of course I do. Why would I do what a fictional character says?

Phat writes:

And you have no excuse any more than I might.


My "excuse" is that I don't do what any fictional character says just because he says it.

The point of doing what Jesus says is to show that you have faith in Him, faith in what He says, and that you trust Him to stand by you regardless of the consequences. I don't believe He exists, I don't have faith in Him and I know He won't stand by me because He doesn't exist.

So for God's sake, stop using that stupid argument.

Phat writes:

Explain to the peanut gallery how my interpretation is self-serving?


Oh come on. The peanut gallery can see it without any further explanation from me. Why don't you explain how believing that you don't have to do anything is not self-serving?

Phat writes:

Asimov, Stan Lee or any good fiction writer can provide you with documentation about Frodo, or Long John Silver, or whatever character they create.


That's first-hand documentation by the authentic authors. You certainly have no such documentation for Jesus.

Phat writes:

Even here at EvC, your documentation of your so-called "plain reading" is simply further evidence as to what *you* believe that the character says.


Nonsense. I quote the documentation so that anybody who reads it can see what it said. It doesn't make any difference what I think it says.

Phat writes:

But until you step out of the boat and walk over to where I and other believers reside...


As I keep telling you, I have been there. That's how I know how empty it is.

Phat writes:

...content to cling to an ancient book simply to make an argument...


I'm just pointing out that your "faith" is completely made up in your head. If you're not "clinging" to the Book, the character in your head might as well be called Barny Rubble.

Phat writes:

and loathe to step beyond your rational minds...


Do you even realize how stupid it is to argue against rationality?

Phat writes:

... and your limited conception of God.


I have no conception of God. And the one you make up in your head is far more limited thn the ones in the Bible.

Phat writes:

This Jesus whom you claim I make up most certainly does ask me to do things that are uncomfortable for me to do.


But He doesn't ask you to give up everything you have to follow Him.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you should become reacquainted with Him if in fact you ever met Him.


How arrogant of you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 12-11-2020 8:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19251
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 68 of 176 (883533)
12-15-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
12-15-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.


It isn't a "specific text"; it's a theme. Besides the rich young ruler:

1. Jesus praised the widow for giving her last two mites, saying that it was more significant than the bags and bags of gold given by the rich men.

2. Even in the Old Testament, another widow gave Elijah the last of her food, believing that she and here son would starve to death because of it.

3. Zacchaeus promised to make fourfold restitution to the people he had cheated and to give the remaining half of his fortune to the poor. There is no indication that he held anything back.

4. The early church believed it was what Jesus wanted them to do. And it seems they were right because Ananias and Sapphira were killed (by God) for not doing it.

So what do you have to back up your claim that what Jesus said to the rich young ruler was specific to him only?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33437
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 69 of 176 (883534)
12-15-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
12-15-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Ah, yet another example of looking for the copout!

Got it!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 11:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 4:28 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 70 of 176 (883537)
12-15-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
12-15-2020 2:44 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Have you sold all that you have, jar? I rest my case.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 2:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 7:19 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33437
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 71 of 176 (883539)
12-15-2020 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-15-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Quite a bit Phat. But you still miss the whole point.

Jesus really didn't think individuals should own anything more than the very basic minimal needs; the clothes they wore and maybe a knife or sword. Jesus was a socialist; he lived in other folks homes, ate other folks food, relied on others to meet his needs.

That is the goal. Our duty is to get as close to that as possible, to do for others.

It's not about how much anyone gives but rather what they deprive others. That includes the basics and actually have been a US Commitment since outlined by FDR as a peroration in his Four Freedoms Speech that really needs to be mandatory reading for every middle schooler.

The evolution of the Four Freedoms speech; include the call to create a "moral order" in the US and Worldwide.

There is nothing in there that is impossible or even very difficult or expensive; but it does require a sense of morality that seems totally missing among so much of US Christianity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 4:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-16-2020 1:14 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 72 of 176 (883541)
12-16-2020 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
12-15-2020 7:19 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
I read the four freedoms speech. It was quite good yet I cont6rasted it against a documentary that I saw recently.

The whole myth of cultural relativism is exposed, among other things.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 12-15-2020 7:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 12-16-2020 7:51 AM Phat has responded
 Message 74 by nwr, posted 12-16-2020 12:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33437
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 73 of 176 (883543)
12-16-2020 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-16-2020 1:14 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
LOL

How could you watch that silly thing without breaking down into hysterical laughter. Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you actually think that is a documentary?

There is absolutely nothing in that video that supports the existence of any war against the west. In fact there is absolutely nothing in that video that even explains what "the West" actually means.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-16-2020 1:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 12-16-2020 1:55 PM jar has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5803
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 74 of 176 (883544)
12-16-2020 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-16-2020 1:14 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
A bunch of vague statements taken out of context and put together in a way to make it sound scary.

I guess they succeeded in fooling you. I'm not sure why you were unable to see how vacuous it is.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-16-2020 1:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 75 of 176 (883545)
12-16-2020 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
12-16-2020 7:51 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
jar writes:

Jesus really didn't think individuals should own anything more than the very basic minimal needs; the clothes they wore and maybe a knife or sword. Jesus was a socialist; he lived in other folks homes, ate other folks food, relied on others to meet his needs.

The thing is, if nobody owned anything, where could He stay? Surely some people needed to own homes.

That is the goal. Our duty is to get as close to that as possible, to do for others.
No argument there.

It's not about how much anyone gives but rather what they deprive others.
Odd that you use that word. As if by owning a second cloak I am depriving someone else of a cloak.

The evolution of the Four Freedoms speech includes the call to create a "moral order" in the US and Worldwide.
Sounds a bit globalist (and socialist/liberal) to me. In fact, I feel that the reason you don't like my documentary is because it is conservative leaning and expresses worry about Islam taking over Europe...which apparently to you relativists poses no problem. Perhaps the irony of this whole discussion is the meaning of what it means to be and represent Christianity. For many of us who were raised as Christian Nationalists, it was easy to proudly proclaim Jesus from a position of strength. When the Yanks and the Brits(traditionally the main idea of "the West") advanced the cause of freedom, it was under the guise of Christianity.

If Islam actually became the dominant global; religion, I strongly feel that there would be friction with Christians...those who were left.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 12-16-2020 7:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 12-16-2020 2:50 PM Phat has responded
 Message 93 by PaulK, posted 12-20-2020 9:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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