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Author Topic:   What Is The Holy Spirit
jar
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Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 5 of 176 (275541)
01-03-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by moolmogo
01-03-2006 11:14 PM


LOL

I kind of wanted read how unbelievers explained the Holy Spirit.

Why would they?

AbE:

However,most of the other things you mention in your OP

Being convicted of sin and repenting.

Being led by the Holy Spirit to help someone (you may or may not know) at the right time without knowing they needed the help.

The ability to have the "fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance".

IMHO are far more likely to be coming from Atheists and Agnostics than from Christians.

This message has been edited by jar, 01-03-2006 10:29 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 4 by moolmogo, posted 01-03-2006 11:14 PM moolmogo has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 29 of 176 (710891)
11-12-2013 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
11-12-2013 10:41 AM


Re: Likely Or Not?
The part I was responding to was ...

quote:
Being convicted of sin and repenting.

Being led by the Holy Spirit to help someone (you may or may not know) at the right time without knowing they needed the help.

The ability to have the "fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance".


In my experience those things are really rare within Club Christian, particularly among the "Biblical Christian" chapters.

While all might be logically equal, in reality very few are equal and training or indoctrination certainly can override any original equality.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 34 of 176 (883419)
12-06-2020 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-06-2020 3:21 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Only an utter ***** would make such a list of absurdities.

1) Confidence In Salvation
2) Godly Character
3)Power & Passion for Evangelism
4)The Gift of Tongues
5)Love for Jesus
6)Knowledge of Truth (Absolute...not Relative)
7) Holiness(sounds just like #2)

Is there ANY evidence that any of those items other then the very first are even possible?

And the first is just stupid. It is typical of every believer in every religion but as pointed out in the Book of the Dead no ones knows until they are dead and judged.

Hell is filled with those who were Confident In Salvation.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 37 of 176 (883426)
12-07-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
12-07-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
All of the Goats loved Jesus and look at where they ended up.

None of the Sheep loved Jesus and look where they ended up.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 40 of 176 (883429)
12-07-2020 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
12-07-2020 1:21 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Who posted "I would argue that love for Jesus is the main issue."?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 43 of 176 (883432)
12-07-2020 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
12-07-2020 1:36 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Phat writes:

I might add that I strongly feel that the supernatural will come out of the closet in the next twenty years and people will see "unexplained" events which I believe will be connected to this.

Again Phat that is just a silly statement unless you can provide a way to test the unexplained event that would return a verifiable and repeatable answer of "supernatural".

So far no one has EVER provided a model, means, method, process or procedure that could return such an answer.

Phat writes:

And you sciuence types will sweep the belief under the rug, claiming no objective evidence...little realizing that old Phat was right all along and that there is in effect a spiritual reality.

Yet the reality will remain that we are right until and unless you provide the test method.

Phat writes:

Though I must honestly admit that I would be disappointed...mad even...if I was wrong.

Fortunately reality doesn't care whether we get mad.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 42 by Phat, posted 12-07-2020 1:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 49 of 176 (883448)
12-08-2020 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
12-08-2020 3:03 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Phat writes:

Now...if you want to talk about the father of our Lord Jesus Christ who was, is, and is to come, then we can have a discussion about reality.

Great, let's talk. Please present any evidence or a reasoned argument that might support the thing you claim exists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 48 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 3:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 6:20 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 176 (883456)
12-08-2020 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
12-08-2020 6:20 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
Phat writes:

jar writes:

Please present any evidence or a reasoned argument that might support the thing you claim exists.

For starters, are we in agreement that we are talking about the One whom Jesus referred to as "Father"? Is this not GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen?

No Phat, it is another character in the story that is as so often the case simply undefined.

Remember, The character God that would be referenced in any Bible story of Jesus is NOT the three in one character of contemporary Dogma.

I can see no way that there could ever be any agreement when it comes to some god in the Bible beyond what is the the actual reference. As soon as you try pulling pieces parts out of other areas you end up with the god that you create. In your example it is some undefined but most likely Hebrew concept of a God that could not possibly have a son or be some three in one amalgam.

It's not Jesus that created the father of our Lord Jesus Christ who was, is, and is to come.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 6:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 7:57 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 56 of 176 (883465)
12-09-2020 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
12-08-2020 7:57 PM


Re: Likely Or Not?
No Phat, I was not taught one period, I was exposed to the many god characters that exist.

You are claiming that you have the ability to describe GOD as the god you want. But you never produce any evidence or reasoned argument to support that assertion.

GOD, if GOD exists is whatever GOD actually is; good bad, incomplete, complete, far, unfair, loving, hateful, kind, cruel ... the list goes on and.

No one has ever provided and evidence, model, method, process, procedure or reasoned argument to allow you or any one of us to say what GOD might be like.

But we and you and the various authors and story tellers that created the Bible stories have created god(s) as we want them. So has every other religion, known and unknown that ever existed. All of those God(s) and god(s) are equally plausible or implausible. There is absolutely no reason to think any of them exist.

We can believe that GOD exists and that GOD picked us but it is irrelevant whether that GOD is Vishnu or The Great A'tuin or Coyote or Jesus or God or Ganesh or pick whatever god creation fits you needs and desires.

BUT, if GOD does exist then GOD will be whatever GOD actually is rather than anything we might wish GOD was.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 7:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 12-09-2020 7:56 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 58 of 176 (883467)
12-09-2020 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
12-09-2020 7:56 AM


Re: Likely Or Not?
You are conflating yet again religion and reality. They are not the same.

I am a Christian, as you mention a Cradle Creedal Christian and so I accept those things that are in the creeds. By accept, I acknowledge that they are a significant part of the dogma of the religion.

The question of whether or not Jesus is god is one of those things that has no possible answer unless you add a whole laundry list of qualifiers Phat and we have run down that path many many many many times.

Phat writes:

The Wiki article states that a minority of Christians are non-trinitarians, and I'm curious if you believe that the Nicene Creed is Trinitarian or not.

The Nicene Creed is neither Trinitarian or Non-Trinitarian but was a significant step in the creation of Trinitraianism.

It's the first Church document that actually seems to acknowledge the Holy Spirit as an actual entity as opposed to some force or attribute and was part of the political struggle opposing Arian Christianity.

Remember, the passage in the "We Believes" that references the Holy Spirit was a later addition to the original Nicene Creed stuck in 56 years after the original version.

(aside: The Nicene Creed is the only one of the Creeds that is almost universally accepted among Club Christian unlike the Athanasian Creed which is the authoritative one regarding Trinitarianism and is another product of unknown origin but from at least another half century after the Nicene Creed.)

The reality is that classic Trinitarianism makes no sense and is another example of mutually exclusive dogma. The traditional drawing of the triangle with the nots on the edges and is pointing to the middle just is plain silly; a representation of an impossibility. It's one of those things that can result in lip service but I have never yet found anyone who can provide reasoned or even rational argument that it is a representation of reality rather than fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 12-09-2020 7:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 12-09-2020 8:59 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 60 of 176 (883474)
12-09-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
12-09-2020 8:59 AM


Re: Likely Or Not?
But Phat, what you just posted is NOT what is claimed by Trinitarianism.

You just posted yet another made up apologetic to get around what is actually written.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 12-09-2020 8:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 65 of 176 (883529)
12-15-2020 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
12-15-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Phat writes:

I dont believe that by implication Jesus means that everyone at any one instance is expected to give everything away or sell everything. I dont think we can imply that based on the specific text.

Where in the text do you find such an exemption?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 10:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 11:04 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 69 of 176 (883534)
12-15-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
12-15-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Ah, yet another example of looking for the copout!

Got it!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 11:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 4:28 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 71 of 176 (883539)
12-15-2020 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-15-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Quite a bit Phat. But you still miss the whole point.

Jesus really didn't think individuals should own anything more than the very basic minimal needs; the clothes they wore and maybe a knife or sword. Jesus was a socialist; he lived in other folks homes, ate other folks food, relied on others to meet his needs.

That is the goal. Our duty is to get as close to that as possible, to do for others.

It's not about how much anyone gives but rather what they deprive others. That includes the basics and actually have been a US Commitment since outlined by FDR as a peroration in his Four Freedoms Speech that really needs to be mandatory reading for every middle schooler.

The evolution of the Four Freedoms speech; include the call to create a "moral order" in the US and Worldwide.

There is nothing in there that is impossible or even very difficult or expensive; but it does require a sense of morality that seems totally missing among so much of US Christianity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-15-2020 4:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-16-2020 1:14 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33413
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 73 of 176 (883543)
12-16-2020 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-16-2020 1:14 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
LOL

How could you watch that silly thing without breaking down into hysterical laughter. Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you actually think that is a documentary?

There is absolutely nothing in that video that supports the existence of any war against the west. In fact there is absolutely nothing in that video that even explains what "the West" actually means.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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