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Author Topic:   What Is The Holy Spirit
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 176 (883575)
12-20-2020 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by dwise1
12-20-2020 12:29 AM


Re: Home Sweet ?
whyat you guys all fail to understand is that I don't believe that the book is all that Jesus is or says. I relate to a living Christ and not a character in a book.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by dwise1, posted 12-20-2020 12:29 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2020 4:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 176 (883586)
12-21-2020 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
12-21-2020 11:26 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
ringo writes:

The issue is that Christians are supposed to take care of the poor - but they don't, so governments have it do it.

So what is the basic argument? Lets reduce it to a basic dollars and cents (or sense ) argument.

First, define "the poor". Is it the guy scraping by on minimum wage trying to raise a family? Is it people largely outside of the United States that are far worse off?

Is it simply a monetary equation? The net worth of everyone divided by the basic cost of food, clothing, shelter, and perhaps health care and retirement security?

Lets start by defining that.

Next, using the "book" as a supporting argument, who among us globally professes to be a Christian? And does this legally obligate these people alone to ...oh I dunno....give all that they have to alleviate global poverty before anyone else is legally obligated to lift a finger? Lets be clear what you mean, ringo. I sometimes think that you and many other liberals target the global "Christian" Nationalists whom you see with a lions share of the money....
and whom do not...by the way...represent a lions share of we Christians. Many of us are less than wealthy. So explain your "issue" more fully.

Do I get a share of your spare change if I am Christian or if I am simply poor?

Are you exempt from the group that has to help the poor through government since the church down the block failed?

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : spelling


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 12-21-2020 11:26 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 12-22-2020 4:10 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 12-22-2020 11:19 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 176 (883626)
12-29-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
12-22-2020 11:19 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
Lets close out the year arguing about the practical implications of "giving it all up".

ringo writes:

So what do you have to back up your claim that what Jesus said to the rich young ruler was specific to him only?


Despite your overall mockery of apologists, this one has as good of an answer as I would give.
Does Jesus Expect His Followers To Give Up All Of Their Possessions

I knolw your arguments. You will take the literal words of the book (and the character Jesus in the book) as your argument. I reject your argument because of several reasons:
1) I do not see Jesus expecting everyone whom He talks to to do everything that He says to each individual as a collective instruction. I do see your argument and examples as a possible plain interpretation, but I also do not relate to Jesus the character any more than I would or even could relate to the character Frodo...or Long John Silver. I do not relate to characters in books. If Karl Marx...long dead...told you that from each according to his ability to each according to their needs, I wouldn't expect you to listen to that either.
I have a theory that you used to be so religious that you would have done such a thing and became disillusioned by how so few modern Christians follow the discipline and willingness of early Christians. I'm probably wrong, however.

I have been very clear: A follower of Christ would be glad to do what He asked. The disciples did it. The early Church did it. But you are a follower of a "Jesus" that you have made up in your head - one that is very careful not to ask you to do anything you don't want to do.
Again, you never mention the modern church. Why are you puzzled that very few of us would do it? Is that why you stopped believing?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 12-22-2020 11:19 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 12-29-2020 4:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 01-04-2021 11:20 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 176 (883633)
12-30-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
12-29-2020 5:35 PM


Reasoned Argumentation. RE: AZPaul3
jar is a constant unwavering challenge. Like with you, I know that you are not a believer and thus some of jars arguments make some sense to you as well as my ongoing attempts to address them. Ringo is a bit more puzzling because3 hee used to be a believer....I'm thinking a rather serious one...and then became disillusioned for two basic reasons.
1) Logic and Evidence took obvious precedence.
2) Most "Christians" whom he knew failed to live up to the standard(which he considers a no-brainer)

Jar, on the other hand, has positioned himself both as a believer(or at least a recognized member of a church) and yet also beholden to logic, reason, and reality. He always says he wants to get me to think (that I might actually enjoy it) but I cant simply take contrarian sides regarding my personal belief. I know that it makes zero sense to you guys and 100% sense to Biblical Christian Believers and Apologists.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2020 5:35 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by nwr, posted 12-30-2020 5:13 PM Phat has responded
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 01-04-2021 11:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 176 (883639)
12-31-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by AZPaul3
12-31-2020 9:43 AM


Re: What is the 'Holy Spirit'?
In your mind, is "it" pantheistic moreso than monotheistic? Is the mountain itself "spiritual"? Is the little bird? In my mind I see the Holy Spirit as a creative force that is greater than the sum of what "it "creates. .

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2020 9:43 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2020 4:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 176 (883642)
12-31-2020 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by nwr
12-30-2020 5:13 PM


Re: Reasoned Argumentation. RE: AZPaul3
Jar, on the other hand, has positioned himself both as a believer(or at least a recognized member of a church) and yet also beholden to logic, reason, and reality.
nwr writes:

Those do not contradict one another.
You seem to see them as contradictory (your use of "yet"). I never saw them as contradictory.

We all see things uniquely, nwr. I remember years ago when you used to show up in the EvC chatroom where jar resided and have chats with us. IIRC you were a math teacher...or am I mistaken?

Anyway, my basic argument will unwind when i get more time. In the meanwhile, Happy New Year everyone! woot


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by nwr, posted 12-30-2020 5:13 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by nwr, posted 12-31-2020 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 01-04-2021 11:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 176 (883697)
01-07-2021 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
01-04-2021 11:20 AM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
ringo writes:

We already know the practical implications. The Early Church did it. Many religious communities have done it since then and many still do it.

Im asking you to think of the logical and practical implications of a whole country doing it...and what it would mean. I( refuse to give up my private property to some government plan to eliminate poverty at my expense. If the rich get to skip out, so do I. It would be they who would support the basic lifestyle that I believe in. Giving all my money to the poor wont help me without the help (voluntary not mandatory) of the upper middle class.

ringo writes:

Many people who don't accept the book give it all up.

They are usually liberal globalist extremists. Read my lips. Private property is an inalienable right. There are problems with common property held by a government if everyone was forced to give up their assets to the state.

Do the math and explain to me how I would maintain a decent lifestyle by giving it all up. And why I should be the guy in line ahead of you to do it?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 01-04-2021 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2021 7:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 01-08-2021 11:20 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 116 by anglagard, posted 01-12-2021 11:45 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 176 (883812)
01-13-2021 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by anglagard
01-12-2021 11:45 PM


Re: Doing What Jesus Says
May I remind you that I lost my Mother on December 20th and have been in mourning. I dont need any bribes...I will get around to your challenge soon.

There is no grand consensus on the philosophy of life. Not everyone will agree.

Anyone who believes in a uniform belief does not understand reality.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by anglagard, posted 01-12-2021 11:45 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by anglagard, posted 01-13-2021 4:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 176 (883840)
01-14-2021 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
01-13-2021 9:06 AM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
jar writes:

We still haven't had anyone explain just what the "Holy Spirit" is. Trinitarian Christianity Doctrine is pretty clear on what the "Holy Spirit" is NOT but filled with contradictory declarations on what the "Holy Spirit" really is.


Christian teaching itself is full of contradictory and conflicting definitions and doctrines.
You yourself may explain the Holy Spirit as likely little more than a character in a book.
Trinitarian Christianity Doctrine is no mystery to me, though it is controversial among humanist sects of Christianity. They cant quite grasp the idea of the Father(you will ask which God) the Son (Scripture plainly tells us that God had One begotten Son) AND The Holy Spirit(we can examine some other translations if you like, as long as we are led by the Holy Spirit and not some intellectual pretender who thinks it all a myth!)

Let me try and pull up the parts of an ESV or NKJV Bible that mention the holy spirit and we can discuss the context as we see it.

Look, jar---I realize that you have a good argument from an objective evidence-based standard. You have historically dismissed "believers" as uneducated at best, preferential towards fantasy, and hypocritical. What would you define as fantasy, however? That Jesus was God? More-so, that He represented GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen? Or do you believe (and I know you do) that we are NOT special nor unique among the populations of the universe? Did it ever occur to you that there just might be One GOD over all of the universe, multiverses, life, and reality and that despite what people imagine/fantasize, this basic fact IS reality. It could well be that Jesus takes on many forms as He visits other planet populations and that it is Gods mission to restore our lost sanity. Or you could choose to believe that Stan Lees creation is more original and special than GOD's!!

What would you want from a Comforter Who is also the Creator?

As we individually argue with and between ourselves and others, we need to form a larger perspective from which to ask questions.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockian discourse


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 01-13-2021 9:06 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by anglagard, posted 01-15-2021 1:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 129 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 7:08 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 176 (883848)
01-15-2021 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
01-15-2021 7:08 AM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
jar writes:

Okay, so since it is no mystery to you please explain it.

Keep in mind that I am only explaining my beliefe and how I understand it. There is no way that I can answer the question in any evidence-based scientific methodology.

Imagine yourself being GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Your creative intelligence itself is the essence of life throughout the universe(perhaps multiverses) known and unknown. There are a brazillion spots that sentient life emerges within this cosmos. Speaking from the standpoint of 1 of these Brazillion, I represent the human point of view. The mugwumps, Dalmatians, pond scums, and other life forms exist elsewhere...and the history of my planet, apart from the rocks and the oceans, and creepy crawly's tells the biological story of our evolution. The humans are unique in that they are one of the only lifeforms able to record information. With me so far?

You claim there is only one God yet there are three separate and individual critters who are each God.
The three are one. I am the Creator of all seen and unseen and relate to a Brazillion other species apart from yours.

My Son is the human connection. He appears to you as human. Fully human. On the Mugwumpian planet, He may well appear as Mugwumpian. On the pond scum planet, He may well appear as pond scum, though my foreknown plan for that planet is to establish communion with the chosen lifeform at a later date.

The point that I am attempting to explain to you is my belief that God never fails to show up...no matter which way He chooses to do it.

Perhaps a question for you is whether or not you choose to acknowledge Him or whether you would rather figure out everything by yourself. While I do not know, I would imagine this to be a personal thing between you and Him.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 7:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 10:37 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 176 (883849)
01-15-2021 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by AZPaul3
01-15-2021 9:33 AM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
He never forced Himself on her. He told her what he was going to do and she chose whether or not to accept it. You really need better porn.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2021 9:33 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2021 12:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 176 (883851)
01-15-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
01-15-2021 10:37 AM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
I am well aware of Oneness Pentecostalism and Modalism. As for being a heretic, I would imagine that everyone is a heretic in the eyes of others unless the others share the Spirit that you(we) have. If they don't you are off to the races with a new argument and new debate! Hence why we have so many denominations even within our own club.

Some may argue that truth is relative and derived through evidence-based thinking and chosen belief. Others may claim that truth is revealed. The only problem there is that one mans revelation may be another mans heresy.

jar writes:

Now see it you can try to explain what the Holy Spirit is in any Trinitarian universe.

First I might ask whether the universe is in fact Monistic, Dualistic, or in fact Trinitarian. If we agreed that the universe was Trinitarian, as I proposed, We then get back to the idea of One Creator of all seen and unseen, One "Son" Who is the character of the Creator, and One Holy Spirit which is the ongoing presence of the Creator infused with the species who become aware of said Creator. The species can then choose whether to remain in the communion of One or whether the species chooses to think for itself and become separate. Upon reflection, this is a hard task....to attempt to explain the Holy Spirit without myself becoming separate and disconnected.

It is the bane of our existence yet an opportunity to learn more.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 10:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 11:07 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 176 (883854)
01-15-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by AZPaul3
01-15-2021 12:06 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
SleazyPaul3 writes:

So you think your holy polterghost showed up in her bedroom one night and said, "I'm gonna fuck you." and she just said "Sure."? Or maybe she cried "Take me! Take me! Take me!" since Joseph was kinda square about these things and only did oral.

The authors of Matthew describe it this way:

Matt 1:18-2:1 writes:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us."

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

One could argue that Mary had no say in the matter and that by calling the baby Jesus instead of Immanuel Joseph relied on the dream more than the words of the early prophecy. I will continue after my 8 hour shift at work. Gotta run.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2021 12:06 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2021 5:47 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 176 (883855)
01-15-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
01-15-2021 10:37 AM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
jar writes:

Now see it you can try to explain what the Holy Spirit is in any Trinitarian universe.

It appears that your question assumed the universe to be Trinitarian. I was only responding to that.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 10:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 3:45 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 176 (883881)
01-16-2021 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
01-15-2021 3:45 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Really? Are you saying that the Orthodox Church was not Trinitarian? Or are you simply making an argument from the perspective of Non-Trinitarians?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 3:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 01-16-2021 3:08 PM Phat has responded

  
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