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Author Topic:   3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter
Phat
Member
Posts: 14967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 91 of 96 (882149)
09-13-2020 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
09-13-2020 2:45 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
jar writes:

What do any of the things you mention have to do with anything but how you feel?

And there you go again. You made the same argument about Saul being transformed into Paul. Paul was totally different than Saul. You minimize the event by claiming that he simply switched sides and was essentially the same person. You don't believe in the ability of God to transform anybody, do you?

What the hell is spirit and just exactly how do you test spirit?
You can really only test "spirit" through long term observation of behavior.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 2:45 PM jar has responded

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 Message 92 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 3:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33185
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 92 of 96 (882151)
09-13-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-13-2020 2:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

And there you go again. You made the same argument about Saul being transformed into Paul. Paul was totally different than Saul. You minimize the event by claiming that he simply switched sides and was essentially the same person.

Yet that is NOT what the evidence shows Phat. Paul continued all of Saul's faults and shortcoming and was exactly the same unrepentant, unforgiving, obnoxious, "may way or the highway", loud mouthed pratt as before. Paul did change sides but nothing else UNLESS you can offer evidence or reasoned support for your assertion.

Phat writes:

You can really only test "spirit" through long term observation of behavior.

What behavior and how does that particular behavior test or evidence or demonstrate "spirit"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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FLRW
Member (Idle past 45 days)
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-08-2007


(1)
Message 93 of 96 (882153)
09-13-2020 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by AZPaul3
09-13-2020 1:50 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
*
You are right, Albert Einstein was a heretic.
*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 09-13-2020 1:50 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 5588
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 94 of 96 (882155)
09-13-2020 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by FLRW
09-13-2020 4:18 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Then we're in good company.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 95 of 96 (883912)
01-17-2021 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by AnswersInGenitals
07-13-2020 5:02 PM


Re: Truth is in the mind
I might add "I am NOT GOD."

Potter was once a Buddhist. He evolved beyond Monism and Dualism and embraced Trinitarianism. (More specifically, Trinitarian Monotheism.)

Ellis Potter writes:

To understand Buddhism, it is important to understand the concept of Monism – one of the great ‘theories of everything’. Monism is not the same as monotheism. Monotheism is the belief in one God, but Monism is the belief in one One, a total unity that is the ground of everything. That is very different. If you believe in one God, then you have God and not God, but if you believe in one One, then you have only unity, or All is One.

Though a monotheist, I believe in the battle between good and evil. Were there no battle, there would be calm and serenity in our minds and we would either be monists, (All inclusive one love no evil belief) like you guys are. You have no religion yet you can understand monism quite well...you simply call "it" reality.
Potter writes:

Monism is an ancient worldview. It probably came about when people looked around at the world and felt a strong sense of unity. There is one earth, one sky, one sun, one moon, one human race, one cycle of day and night, one cycle of four seasons. At the same time, people saw diversity. They saw differences. The unities they witnessed were stable and dependable, but the diversities they witnessed were unstable and undependable. Monism argues that the original perfection is a perfect, changeless, eternal unity. We suffer because we have forgotten this original unity and live in an illusion of diversity. This illusion may seem very real to us, but it’s an illusion nevertheless. According to Monism, the solution to suffering is to remember and realize the perfect unity again.

All is One! is the bumper sticker of the New Age movement. It’s the great sound bite, the great evangelistic cry. All is One. If all is One, then you are God. You are the sun and the moon and the Milky Way and the whole universe. If all is One, then when you drink from a cup of water, you are God putting God into God. ‘All is One’ is so attractive because if everything is one, no one is going to disagree with anyone, no one will fight, no one will misunderstand, and no one will be lonely. All problems are solved if everything is one. You might sort of like this idea. If all is one, however, then you are me, and that might not be so attractive. If everything is one, relationships are evil because you only have relationships when you have the illusion of diversity. If everything is one, hatred is evil because hatred is a relationship, and love is also evil because love is a relationship.

Some people are inclined to protest against this line of reasoning because they don’t want to give up the idea of love or relationship. But Monism is an absolute worldview that encompasses everything, and so you can’t pick and choose to keep some parts of reality diverse or separate. Everything is one. Nothing is left out, nothing is divided, and everything is absolutely unified.

So here is a question for jar. Is Logic, Reason, and Reality three separate concepts?

I will continue quoting Potter and then we will address the scriptures that the apologists claim speak directly about the Holy Spirit. We can hash it out there.

By the way, I took these quotes of Ellis Potter from this article (since I am too lazy to type word for word quotes from the paperback copy of the book which I have and have read through once...I am rereading the book in light of jars challenge regarding Trinitarian Monotheism vs Monotheism (or perhaps in jars mind, Monism. Allah is a Monistic God. He had no son nor is he in communion with anybody)

Potter writes:

The idea that all is One has its roots in ancient versions of Monism. It is the foundation of Hinduism and Buddhism, the great monistic religions.

jar has mentioned a time or two that GOD is complete encompassing both good and evil. He quotes Isaiah, but I suspect he has been influenced much more by comparative religions teaching as opposed to apologetic teaching which I grew up with.
Potter writes:

When a Christian tells Buddhists or Hindus that they need to be born again they will reply, ‘Oh, I know—and again and again!’ Being born again doesn’t sound like good news to a Buddhist or Hindu.

We have discussed mainstream apologetic Christianity and you have rejected it as shallow, fantasy-based, and a copout.

I do not see it as easy, but I do affirm a spiritual war of sorts....a dualistic yin/yang reality of good and evil. Potter explains how Monotheism, through Trinitarianism, eclipses the monistic (or strict monotheistic) views of Allah or of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and a human son sitting at His right side

Potter writes:

Christians have a different view – another theory of everything: Trinitarianism. They regard the original perfection, which is called God, as both perfectly unified and perfectly diversified.

We see a clear description of this reality in the Bible. God is perfectly unified as one God, and yet God is perfectly diversified in the three persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is unity and diversity in absolute reality. There is not one God who chooses to reveal Himself in three ways in order to create the appearance of diversity, and there are not three persons who choose to unite and cooperate in order to create the appearance of being unified.

Here is a proverb I made up to capture the essence of this reality: God alone is God, and God is not alone. You cannot make this statement about any other God or original perfection. You can say Buddha alone is Buddha, but that is all. The rest is silence. You can say Krishna alone is Krishna and Allah alone is Allah, but the rest again is silence. If the God of the Bible wants to talk to somebody, He talks among Himself, because He is three persons. A God who wasn’t diversified could not talk among Himself. He would have to create something else to talk with. He would require a creation in order to be personal, whereas the God of the Bible is intrinsically personal, independent of His creation. His creation does not complete Him but rather expresses Him.

If the original perfection is both unified and diversified, it means that when we experience unity in reality it shouldn’t be a problem, and when we experience diversity in reality it shouldn’t be a problem. In other words, unlike Monism, Trinitarianism does not regard diversity as the cause of suffering, and does not see the solution to suffering as involving a detachment from diversity. The Christian sees variation and contrast as a part of the original perfection, and therefore, as a normal part of reality itself.

The Bible’s depiction of absolute reality is a totally other-centered God. This other-centeredness is the source of God’s energy, for as each of the persons of God empties Himself once, He is filled twice by the others. This energy increases exponentially. It became so great that God could say Let there be light! and a universe was born. The Bible gives a name to this energy when it says God is love. It is an other-centered emptying and filling, a perpetual building up of energy. It is the energy of life. It is the foundation of all reality.
Conclusion

For Buddhists, the original perfection is a total perfect unity and we suffer because we have the illusion of diversity. Salvation is waking up and realizing that unity again. For Christians, the original perfection is a unity of three persons who are other-centered in a relational reality of love. We suffer because we have turned things around and have become self-centered dead people. Salvation is God coming into creation and giving Himself in order that people can receive the power to be re-created as other-centered living people.

What do you think? Where are you?

jar and I are discussing what (if anything) the Holy Spirit is over in Message 152


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 01-17-2021 5:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16735
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 96 of 96 (883920)
01-17-2021 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
01-17-2021 3:32 PM


Re: Truth is in the mind
quote:
Potter was once a Buddhist. He evolved beyond Monism and Dualism and embraced Trinitarianism. (More specifically, Trinitarian Monotheism.)

By which you mean he decided to declare his beliefs superior to everyone else’s without bothering to understand what he was rubbishing. That isn’t my idea of “evolved”.

quote:
So here is a question for jar. Is Logic, Reason, and Reality three separate concepts?

They are certainly not identical. Logic is a formalised subset of Reason, for instance. Reality would be everything that actually exists, as it actually exists, so I suppose it would include Reason (or at least actual instances of Reason - but perhaps we had better not get into the question of whether abstracts exist).

quote:
I am rereading the book in light of jars challenge regarding Trinitarian Monotheism vs Monotheism (or perhaps in jars mind, Monism. Allah is a Monistic God. He had no son nor is he in communion with anybody)

No. Allah is a monotheistic God. A monistic God (as Potter means it) would be pantheism which is not mainstream Islamic thought any more than it is mainstream Christian thought.
(Pantheism is derived from the same roots as Pantheon - but they aren’t otherwise related.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 3:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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