The topic is "What is the Holy Ghost" and so far the only attempt to explain it is as some undefined aspect of god which is of course an explanation that got folk excommunicated and in fact killed.
Duly noted. I'll have to study more church history.
You claim there is only one God yet there are three separate and individual critters who are each God. Fact: 1 + 1 + 1 != 1 (a ! means 'not')
And 1x1x1=1. Whats your point?
In fact, since you bring up church history, lets resume our argument here: Message 7
Lest our audience is confused about the position you take, allow me to remind you.
jar writes:
All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.
Thus I am assuming that in a "Trinitarian Universe"...which to me is a word salad term, you mean that this "Trinitarian Universe exists only within my imagination. You claim to be a believer and have the badge to prove it, but you go on to say this:
jar writes:
Reality and evidence though do trump belief and fantasy.
Thus it appears that you shoot yourself in the foot by claiming to be a believer on one hand yet arguing in favor of lack of evidence as trumping belief.
We all agree that you have read the Bible, so lets go to the Gospel of Mark.
Mark 1:1-11 writes:
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in the Prophets: "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You." 3'The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'"
4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
6 Now John was clothed with camel's hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying,"There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
We all know that churches baptize with wateer...be it a sprinkle or a dunking. John the Baptist is referring to Jesus Christ and mentions that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven,"You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." NKJV
So here we see a voice from the Heavens(GOD?) Jesus getting dunked and a Spirit descending on Him like a dove.(The Holy Spirit?) And perhaps the question here is what the author intended for us to see. Was it just an old crazy prophet dunking Jesus in a river? Did John or any onlookers hear a voice?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
So you claim. Yet you are not the one framing the topic.
Lets look again at Mark 1:10. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven,"You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." NKJV
What was the author describing? What is the "Spirit" in this sentence? Where did this Spirit come from? WHO spoke?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
You can imagine anything that you like. Or rather...that IT likes. Or you can submit your imagination under the discipline of the Holy Spirit. The choice and responsibility are yours.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I disagree. Lets say that you are doing a science experiment. You may successfully replicate a predicted result many times until you cautiously conclude that a vaccine is safe for human use, for example. Through your eyes you see the results appear numerically on paper. Through followup interviews with subjects and control groups you mine data and check and recheck your results and conclusions.
Now lets take "The Holy Spirit" into the Lab. Not every scientist can simply do this because they dont *know* that such a critter exists...certainly not to the extent that they conclude this awareness...this presence or feeling of peace, wisdom, and "good vibes" towards others can be quantified. How do they know, for example that this awareness...this feeling...this attitude is anything more than gas from a bad burrito from last nights meal? (Through sensing the same presence after a night of fasting, perhaps.) Through feeling unusually generous towards others whom they otherwise may be selfish towards. Through a sense of wisdom to only help and encourage others and not to try and "win" or "judge" or feel superior towards, or anything that you (the control group) may charge to be found in any Buddhist, or Atheist, or Muslim. In summation, my point of contention is with your presentation of logic,, reason, and reality itself. Im not saying you are not right but your perspective and conclusion is not right for me. It is not how I believe and it is not how I understand reality.
It is an attempt at poetry and has no meaning beyond whatever the words conjure in the hearers individual mind.
And yet how do you know that it is NOT God?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
This is the topic Phat; for you or anyone who believes in the Trinitarian concept to explain what the Holy Spirit is and then try to justify the Trinitarian claim that there is but one God.
You would be a frustrating teacher had I signed up for your class. Not only would you force me out of my comfort zone of like minded believers, you would actually get me to test my belief with critical thinking and unbiased experimentation. It is a mystery to me why you dont simply believe and reinforce certainty rather than eternal doubt. It nearly seems like GOD knows andc loves you and the others here at EvC just as much as He loves me, yet allows you to question, doubt, and even deny Him while I am trying to get you to not do those things.
There is One God. Even if I threw religion and the Bible away, the belief makes perfect sense. Pantheism is weak and indecisive. Polytheism is ignorant. Monotheism assures me that if I have a problem with a product, the Store Director owes me the rights of a customer. He can, of course, refuse to give me what I demand. How confusing would it be if I had a room full of "Store Directors" who chose to vote a consensus and I was forced to conform if I wanted to be part of that buyers club? I have never been taught inclusivity or shared truth. I have been taught exclusively and absolutely. I feel stronger in that. No Democratic consensus will ever pass a law that forces me to be nice. Or mean. [/rant]
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
You claim Monotheism makes send yet also claim three different entities are God.
You dont understand it and cant count. Nobody is adding anything. If anything, three character aspects equates to One character. Mathwise, 1x1x1=1. Sheesh, jar. Cant God be monotheistic and yet have a human character while remaining monotheistic? Allah sure cant. Potter explains it well in Message 95
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I believe that Jesus is God...in fact that He is GODS Character. No mere anthropomorphized human created idea, though you may employ such an argument. Does that strike you as funny? Am I doing a disservice to the God in your own head? Did you ask too many questions to settle on that answer? You appear more to be a comparative religions truth seeker who decided early on not to settle on what you would derisively label the Biblical Christian culture of ignorance and fantasy.
Yet it never was about their fantasy. It was never directly their doctrines so much as it was their behavior that irritated you. It may well have been encouragement from parents or Socratic teachers who also did not believe that Jesus was God. What you and every other EvC skeptic have in common is that you do not see evidence and it is this fact alone which keeps you from choosing to believe. Furthermore, the evidence that would initially have convinced you was not signs and wonders. Nor Angels or demons. The evidence which eluded you was the behavior and actions of those who claimed to know Jesus.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I think it must be obvious to an outsider that anyone who truly "had the Spirit or indwelling presence of the Creator of all seen and unseen...as we claim to have, would not be afraid of giving everything up. When EvC challenged me on that, I was finally forced to face my disconnect between what I preached and what I actually did.
As a moderate to conservative leaning person, I still place too much faith in the world system of traditional American values and money as it is and not as how most conservatives wish it were. For better or worse, we can no longer bully the world and as you and I both know, Jesus never did. Christian Nationalism has always been a lie.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Good question for discussion. Lets talk hypothetically.
Could Jesus have freely refused to go to the cross?
Was He capable of rebelling against GOD (His Father) and succumbing to the self will which so many part time Christians have?
You have stated before that His Life was more of a lesson than His death, but I guess what I'm asking is whether He died to his flesh (being human, after all) daily or whether he too was rebellious to His own Father occasionally.
Good scripture lesson.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Quit trying to frame the issue the way that you want me to think. You too have been doing that for years. I told you plainly what I believe. If you had a son he quite obviously would be seperate from you. If GOD had a son, the answer may not be as clear. Think, jar. Quit simply trying to frame issues into what you were taught.
Perhaps we should examine the scriptures that pro Trinitarians use and critically evaluate them.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I cannot explain to you what the Holy Spirit is to a believer. (and not just any garden variety believer such as a Hindu or a Jew. I am talking Born Again Christians. Not "Christian Nationalists" or Evidenced based Episcopalian Intellectuals who view God as a philosophical concept gleaned from a book written, edited and redacted by humans.
David Diga Hernandez explains the way that I think articulately, (in my opinion) honestly, and goes a long way towards describing how the best of the Born Again Christians think. If he scares you or disgusts you, there is very little else I can say.
Listen to his explanation of the Holy Spirit. (and yes, Sid Roth is usually sensationalist and flaky, but this episode was refreshing, in my opinion)
And again, it is not 1+1+1. It is 1x1x1.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
that is simply a complete and total refutation of what the Trinitarians depict and in fact you have used.
Perhaps the problem is the attempts at depiction and explanation. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to explain it, but it does take a Rocket Scientist in Communion with GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Trinitarians believe that this Holy Communion could only have been possible through Jesus Christ.
It's another example of the utter intentional and willful ********** of the Christian Cult of *********.
But the fact is that you are not a believer. You have no clue what it even means. Nor do any of the other religions.
The Trinitarian absurd Triangle is based on "IS" and "ISNOT" and not some act of multiplication.
See how your logic trips you up? You try and understand a symbol(manmade) of a belief concept that you have no clue about nor desire to understand. You simply have concluded that it makes no sense to YOUR critically thinking mind.
And I tried to watch the video but sorry, it was simply too silly.
See? You wont take thge time to listen and thus cannot have an opinion on what the man said apart from that it was silly and made no sense.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
You seem to think that I simply fall for what I have been taught. I have had experiences and reasons to believe derived from my personal observations, as well as prayers. Not everyone is as eeager to throw away CCoI beliefs as you were. And granted I DO question many of them. There is truth in that mix, however. It isnt ALL simply fantasy.
And no, we wont get objective evidence that can be shared by everybody.
There may yet come a day when the whole world will undeniably see something, but even then many will deny it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
first of all, how would I present a reasoned argument concerning objectively unconvincing beliefs and experiences?
I can tell you what I have experienced and you can choose whether to trust me or not and may conclude that I am incapable of critical thinking in that regard. You may encourage me to throw certain beliefs away in the name of further thought...but I could no more do it than I could forget that I had a Mother.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
A "reasoned argument" is a series of statements that use evidence and reasoning to persuade someone to accept or reject a particular opinion.
A special case of a reasoned argument is the valid deductive argument.
If you accept the premises of a valid deductive argument, then it would be absurd to reject its conclusion.
Unfortunately, in many cases it is impossible to put together a valid deductive argument either for or against some important statement.
And so we must muddle along with whatever weaker evidence and weaker reasoning we have available to form a reasoned argument and come to some useful opinion one way or the other.
Unfortunately, too many people make statements without any evidence or reasoning at all.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
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