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Author Topic:   What Is The Holy Spirit
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 176 (884211)
01-27-2021 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
01-27-2021 1:11 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
that is simply a complete and total refutation of what the Trinitarians depict and in fact you have used.
Perhaps the problem is the attempts at depiction and explanation. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to explain it, but it does take a Rocket Scientist in Communion with GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Trinitarians believe that this Holy Communion could only have been possible through Jesus Christ.

It's another example of the utter intentional and willful ********** of the Christian Cult of *********.
But the fact is that you are not a believer. You have no clue what it even means. Nor do any of the other religions.

The Trinitarian absurd Triangle is based on "IS" and "ISNOT" and not some act of multiplication.
See how your logic trips you up? You try and understand a symbol(manmade) of a belief concept that you have no clue about nor desire to understand. You simply have concluded that it makes no sense to YOUR critically thinking mind.
And I tried to watch the video but sorry, it was simply too silly.
See? You wont take thge time to listen and thus cannot have an opinion on what the man said apart from that it was silly and made no sense.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 01-27-2021 1:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 01-27-2021 6:04 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 167 of 176 (884213)
01-27-2021 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
01-27-2021 4:01 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Phat writes:

Perhaps the problem is the attempts at depiction and explanation. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to explain it, but it does take a Rocket Scientist in Communion with GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Trinitarians believe that this Holy Communion could only have been possible through Jesus Christ.

See Phat. That's a Typical Christian Cult of ********* everybody nod your heads statement that has absolutely no meaning, no value, no content. It's just blabber.

Phat writes:

But the fact is that you are not a believer. You have no clue what it even means. Nor do any of the other religions.

You keep saying really stupid stuff like that. Again, you also never support such stupid comments with evidence or even reasoned arguments.

Phat writes:

See how your logic trips you up? You try and understand a symbol(manmade) of a belief concept that you have no clue about nor desire to understand. You simply have concluded that it makes no sense to YOUR critically thinking mind.

No Phat, try truth or honesty. Who know, you just might like it.

I have repeatedly asked you and others to explain it and NO ONE has stepped forward with anything other than utter stupidity as seen in your post above.

Phat writes:

See? You wont take thge time to listen and thus cannot have an opinion on what the man said apart from that it was silly and made no sense.

LOL

That's not my problem Phat. If there is even a single nugget or evidence or reasoned argument in that video then you should be able to present it. There is no reason that I should have to listen to some carny pitchman on the off chance that there might actually be a piece of information in there.

If the guy makes a reasoned argument then present it.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 01-27-2021 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:16 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 176 (884238)
01-31-2021 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
01-27-2021 6:04 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
jar writes:

try truth or honesty

You seem to think that I simply fall for what I have been taught. I have had experiences and reasons to believe derived from my personal observations, as well as prayers. Not everyone is as eeager to throw away CCoI beliefs as you were. And granted I DO question many of them. There is truth in that mix, however. It isnt ALL simply fantasy.

And no, we wont get objective evidence that can be shared by everybody.

There may yet come a day when the whole world will undeniably see something, but even then many will deny it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 01-27-2021 6:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 01-31-2021 3:23 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 169 of 176 (884239)
01-31-2021 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
01-31-2021 3:16 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Why is a reasoned argument never offered?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:49 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 176 (884240)
01-31-2021 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
01-31-2021 3:23 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
first of all, how would I present a reasoned argument concerning objectively unconvincing beliefs and experiences?

I can tell you what I have experienced and you can choose whether to trust me or not and may conclude that I am incapable of critical thinking in that regard. You may encourage me to throw certain beliefs away in the name of further thought...but I could no more do it than I could forget that I had a Mother.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 01-31-2021 3:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 172 by jar, posted 01-31-2021 4:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 02-24-2021 11:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 176 (884241)
01-31-2021 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
01-31-2021 3:49 PM


What Is A Reasoned Argument?
A "reasoned argument" is a series of statements that use evidence and reasoning to persuade someone to accept or reject a particular opinion.

A special case of a reasoned argument is the valid deductive argument.

If you accept the premises of a valid deductive argument, then it would be absurd to reject its conclusion.

Unfortunately, in many cases it is impossible to put together a valid deductive argument either for or against some important statement.

And so we must muddle along with whatever weaker evidence and weaker reasoning we have available to form a reasoned argument and come to some useful opinion one way or the other.

Unfortunately, too many people make statements without any evidence or reasoning at all.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 172 of 176 (884242)
01-31-2021 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
01-31-2021 3:49 PM


Re: What is a reasoned arguement?
What you have experienced would not and cannot be a reasoned argument unless you can explain why what you experienced was in some objective way different than other equivalent experiences that lead to a totally different and mutually exclusive result.

You would have to explain why your experience should be accepted when others had similar experiences that lead them to believe in Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Trolls or Leprechauns or Jim Jones.

You make a specific claim that YOUR God is real but others make exactly the same claim that their God is real.

I may have asked before but what makes you believe that what you experienced was different than a bad burrito?

Phat writes:

You may encourage me to throw certain beliefs away in the name of further thought...but I could no more do it than I could forget that I had a Mother.

Is it possible to independently verify that you had a mother?

Are there ways that anyone could test to see if you had a mother?

AbE:

Are there documented cases of humans who were not born of a woman?

Since every known case of a human being is a case where that person had a mother is it not reasonable to assume that holds true in your case as well.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Edited by jar, : fix gremmar.

Edited by jar, : see AbE;

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 02-14-2021 2:54 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 176 (884380)
02-14-2021 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
01-31-2021 4:36 PM


Re: What is a reasoned arguement?
jar writes:

You make a specific claim that YOUR God is real but others make exactly the same claim that their God is real.

Whats your point? Why must everyone be equally correct? Oh I know...evidence, right? Throw Evidence Away.

I may have asked before but what makes you believe that what you experienced was different than a bad burrito?
I have experienced bad burritos (and other digestive problems) before. I know the difference.

s it possible to independently verify that you had a mother?
Yes.

Are there ways that anyone could test to see if you had a mother?
Yes. My point is that you cannot test for God or the Holy Spirit in the same way (as far as I know) but that evidence should not be your only standard. You might try belief. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

Words are ideas. Ideas can be things. If you simply wait for objective evidence you may be standing around asking questions forever...and drawing bad conclusions.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 01-31-2021 4:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 4:41 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 174 of 176 (884388)
02-14-2021 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
02-14-2021 2:54 PM


Re: What is a reasoned arguement?
Make a reasoned argument Phat.

quote:
Is it possible to independently verify that you had a mother?

Are there ways that anyone could test to see if you had a mother?


That is a reasoned argument.

quote:
Are there documented cases of humans who were not born of a woman?

Since every known case of a human being is a case where that person had a mother is it not reasonable to assume that holds true in your case as well.


That is a reasoned argument.

You would have to explain why your experience should be accepted when others had similar experiences that lead them to believe in Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Trolls or Leprechauns or Jim Jones.

You make a specific claim that YOUR God is real but others make exactly the same claim that their God is real.

Make a reasoned argument to support those assertions.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 02-14-2021 2:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 02-17-2021 7:38 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 176 (884417)
02-17-2021 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
02-14-2021 4:41 PM


Re: What is a reasoned arguement?
You make a specific claim that YOUR God is real but others make exactly the same claim that their God is real.
I am not requesting that you believe in "my God." My God is entirely capable of reaching you Himself. If you are ignorant enough to choose to believe in Allah, or Ganesha or Coyote or Trolls or Leprechauns that is your problem, not mine. I might suggest that were you shopping for a God that an individual markets, you already have read about far more credible descriptions of God than I have given you here at EvC. In addition, I believe though cannot prove that the God Who Is has already attempted to get your attention Himself.
There is some evidence that you are a patient teacher, though your style leaves a lot to be desired. I suspect that you have killed the budding faith of many a member and many a student of your teachings. You implore people to throw their preconceived notions away, yet you never feed them with any model or method of how to explore Orthodox Christian concepts such as the Holy Spirit or GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, or most importantly the man Christ Jesus. You never share with anyone how you personally relate to Jesus Christ and in my opinion this is important...and telling. Despite my disagreement with your methods, I still believe that Jesus Himself can reach them as He reached me.

Whether or not He ever made it past your critical mind and Socratic questioning is something that none of us will ever know. In my belief, it is important that you freely accept Him.

You would have to explain why your experience should be accepted when others had similar experiences that lead them to believe in Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Trolls or Leprechauns or Jim Jones.

Not quite. You would have to decide yourself if any of those others whom you had met seemed to have a well rounded demeanor, a positive outlook, and an honest introspective and active mind. I do not need to defend anything to anyone except myself.
Make a reasoned argument to support those assertions.
I suppose that I can keep trying. I figure that if anything, you think that I need the practice. I will say, however, that I do not plan on throwing God (the concept that I have) away. To me, that is bad advice.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 4:41 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19134
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 176 of 176 (884553)
02-24-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
01-31-2021 3:49 PM


Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Phat writes:

first of all, how would I present a reasoned argument concerning objectively unconvincing beliefs and experiences?


People often confuse "reason" with "excuse". You might say your "reason" for considering voting for Trump is that the Democrats are all baby-eating leftists - but that is not a "reason"; that's an excuse for not looking at the facts and not thinking.

Proper "reasoning" goes from truth to truth. You need true premises to produce true conclusions.

So you can't produce a reasoned argument without true premises - and your "experiences" are not true (for the purposes of reasoning) unless they can be confirmed objectively.

Phat writes:

I can tell you what I have experienced and you can choose whether to trust me or not...


The problem is that YOU shouldn't be trusting the first explanation that you glommed onto.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 01-31-2021 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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