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Author Topic:   Be It Stealth or Cyber: We Are In A War With China
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 54 (882156)
09-14-2020 9:34 AM


China is ran by the CCP. Chinese Communist Party. Most thinking people whom I know label the CCP as an aggressive party who are staunchly Nationalistic towards China and in fact a strong competitor (at best) to the United States and our own National interests. At worst, many have stronger opinions: China's Communist Party is a threat to the world, says former elite insider

There are several reasons why this threat needs to be taken seriously. We are not war mongers yet are in fact in the early stages of a war with China. They have stolen business trade secrets brazenly and now openly for many years. They have trashed US business interests and placed the welfare and diligence of China over honoring contracts with US firms, often stealing trade secrets and then opening another division within the same companies to compete with the former US partner. They willingly send many Chinese students here to learn all of our ways, and yet bring this brain material home to build up their own regime. They are taking the best we have, adopting it, and ruthlessly exploiting our knowledge for their gain.

CNN writes:

Cai Xia is no stranger to defying expectations. During her years at the Chinese Communist Party's top training center and think tank, the outspoken professor had surprised many with her liberal ideas and support for democratic reform.

More recently, she caused a stir with a spate of scathing denunciations of China's ruling elite and the country's leader Xi Jinping -- a rare rebuke from a longtime insider that led to her expulsion from the Party earlier this week.
In an interview with CNN from the United States, where she has lived since last year, Cai went a step further by calling on the US government to double down on its hardline approach towards Beijing. She said she supported the Trump administration's ban on telecommunications giant Huawei, which Washington claims is a national security risk due to its alleged connection to the Chinese government -- an allegation Huawei has repeatedly denied.
Cai also called for sanctions on top Chinese officials and appealed to the international community to join hands in stopping the Communist Party from "infiltrating" global institutions and spreading Xi's "totalitarian" ideals.
"The relationship between China and the United States is not a conflict between the two peoples, but a contest and confrontation between two systems and two ideologies," Cai told CNN.

It may well be true that the US itself exploited other nations 100 years ago and ruthlessly stole from them, but now the shoe is on the other foot and the former hunter has become the hunted. There should be global oversight to China's behavior.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 9:40 AM Phat has responded
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-14-2020 12:45 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Pressie, posted 09-15-2020 10:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 54 (882159)
09-14-2020 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-14-2020 9:40 AM


jar writes:

Thinking we are at war with China is particularly stupid!

We most certainly don't have a mutually prosperous relationship with them. Consider what the CNN article says:

  • Now, according to Cai, the Communist Party aims "to replace the free and democratic system of modern mankind represented by the United States, and the values and order of peace, democracy, freedom and justice," with its own model of governance. In a sense, this is another type of Cold War. Global ideology is up for grabs and the US is losing. Our way of life will mean little if we are de-fanged. I've warned before that the money (dollar) may collapse or drastically inflate. China wouldn't care. Granted we are not at war, but we are being challenged and certainly no longer favored as the new global super power asserts its dominance.

  • For more than three decades, Cai had closely dissected the Party from within. Throughout her academic career, she examined its internal workings and ideologies. She taught class after class of officials, first at a local Party school in her home province of Jiangsu and later at the Central Party School in Beijing -- the elite training ground for China's most senior cadres and political rising stars.(...) She had a strict upbringing, ingrained with her parents' revolutionary belief that the people should be freed and empowered to rule the country.

  • I saw how miserable people could be without any rule of law, any protection of rights. It scarred me deeply, and since then I've always been on alert that our country cannot return to that era," she said.
    "Since Xi came to power, however, his language, ideas and actions are all harking back to the Cultural Revolution -- for us who have been through that period, we're very sensitive (to that shift)."

    I also have been listening to an audiobook.
    Stealth War: How China Took Over While America's Elite Slept

    The content is sobering.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 9:40 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:24 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 5 of 54 (882160)
    09-14-2020 10:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by vimesey
    09-14-2020 10:08 AM


    Conservatives vs Liberals Again
    I will agree with you that lots of this comes from the Conservatives and the Trump regime (or supporters of)

    The book I am reading is described on Amazon with this intro: (The author is likely conservative)

    quote:
    The media often suggest that Russia poses the greatest threat to America's national security, but the real danger lies farther east. While those in power have been distracted and disorderly, China has waged a six-front war on America's economy, military, diplomacy, technology, education, and infrastructure--and they're winning. It's almost too late to undo the shocking, though nearly invisible, victories of the Chinese.

    In Stealth War, retired Air Force Brigadier General Robert Spalding reveals China's motives and secret attacks on the West. Chronicling how our leaders have failed to protect us over recent decades, he provides shocking evidence of some of China's most brilliant ploys, including:

    • Placing Confucius Institutes in universities across the United States that serve to monitor and control Chinese students on campus and spread communist narratives to unsuspecting American students.

    • Offering enormous sums to American experts who create investment funds that funnel technology to China.

    • Signing a thirty-year agreement with the US that allows China to share peaceful nuclear technology, ensuring that they have access to American nuclear know-how.

    Spalding's concern isn't merely that America could lose its position on the world stage. More urgently, the Chinese Communist Party has a fundamental loathing of the legal protections America grants its people and seeks to create a world without those rights.

    Despite all the damage done so far, Spalding shows how it's still possible for the U.S. and the rest of the free world to combat--and win--China's stealth war.



    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by vimesey, posted 09-14-2020 10:08 AM vimesey has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 6 of 54 (882161)
    09-14-2020 10:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    09-14-2020 9:40 AM


    Is This An Either/Or Issue?
    jar writes:

    The issue is that too many in the US are simply willfully stupid.

    Are you more favorably disposed towards Globalism or Nationalism?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 9:40 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:26 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 9 of 54 (882164)
    09-14-2020 10:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by jar
    09-14-2020 10:24 AM


    Threats To Our Way Of Life
    So you are saying that Trump is a bigger threat to the US than China? Well if so, the elections will change that. Biden is more favorable towards China, but I am not sure I trust them. They are playing this game for real and it is full contact.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:24 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 10 of 54 (882165)
    09-14-2020 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jar
    09-14-2020 10:26 AM


    Re: Is This An Either/Or Issue?
    jar writes:

    Stop listening to the idiots that keep giving you these binary choices.

    Im the one breaking down the issues into binary concepts. I am not simplistically minded, however. You have always said that "the bill will get paid" and I fear that China will play a role in diminishing the US Dollar. You cant argue that this will be good for the US middle class. China's middle class will rise while the United States falls economically. The trick is keeping most of the world on our side rather than their side. (or am I being too binary again? )

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:26 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 12 of 54 (882167)
    09-14-2020 10:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by jar
    09-14-2020 10:24 AM


    Here Is A Hypothetical Question
    jar writes:

    The world is big. China has enough trouble ruling China.

    China is as technology capable and advanced as the US and maybe even more so.

    China's economy is second only to the US.

    We have discussed the idea of a Global Government before so I am going to pose a hypothetical question to consider:

    If there someday was a global government, which system of prior government would it (or should it) model itself under?

    I would argue in favor of a US style of government. Certain not the CCP.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:24 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 10:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 17 of 54 (882187)
    09-15-2020 5:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by vimesey
    09-15-2020 4:31 AM


    Either You Guys Dont Understand or You Dont Care
    The more I've read and grasped, the more convinced I am that the entire Western system of investing is in trouble. As an example, has anyone here ever heard of the Belt & Road Initiative? This is just one of the plans being unleashed which will re-establish Chinas dominance in the world while seriously hurting Western interests.
    quote:
    China’s "Belt and Road Initiative" (BRI) is a planned multitrillion-dollar infrastructure program that is intended to link China with more than 100 countries through railroad, shipping and energy projects.

    The BRI will recreate the Silk Road, an old network of trading routes between the East and the West, by investing large sums of money into other countries to build such infrastructure projects.



    Has anyone ever heard of the ambitious construction program that China has already done in building their Ghost Cities?
    Is anyone aware that China poured more concrete in 5 years than the United States poured in all of the 20th century? Does anyone know that much of the money to build these cities came from Western Bank investment?

    China has plans to provide cheap living space for 300 million of its citizens in the near future. The cost will be the collapse of the Western banks and all of our pension funds that invested in this project. As the economy readjusts (a euphemism for collapsing) The middle class here will become as poor as Chinas average masses now are, while China will vault ahead of us and jars predictions wi9ll come true...we will be the gardeners, chauffeurs, waiters, and servants of this new monied class of people who will take the reins of a global tech industry which they built largely through stealing our trade secrets and improving upon them.

    This is downright evil! Unlike Chris, I do not believe that Trump is the only solution to delay (at best) this inevitable global shift, but I fail to see how anyone here can profit from this brave new world that we will be forced to deal with.

    China's values are not the same as American values. The only hope for all of this is the estimated 200 million Christians in China---people who are actively oppressed by the CCP.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by vimesey, posted 09-15-2020 4:31 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by jar, posted 09-15-2020 7:35 AM Phat has responded
     Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-15-2020 12:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 25 of 54 (882207)
    09-15-2020 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 18 by jar
    09-15-2020 7:35 AM


    Re: Old News and learn the basics Phat
    One problem with the US is that we seem to focus only on short term goals and what will bring the investors gain in the next 1-5 years, whereas China is skillfully playing the long game.

    What their government soes not have, which Pressie likely doesnt care about, is religious freedom. They insist that the State should be given homage before any God.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by jar, posted 09-15-2020 7:35 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by jar, posted 09-15-2020 1:40 PM Phat has responded
     Message 35 by dwise1, posted 09-15-2020 5:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 30 of 54 (882218)
    09-15-2020 2:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by jar
    09-15-2020 1:40 PM


    Re: Old News and learn the basics Phat
    Phat writes:

    What their government does not have, which Pressie likely doesnt care about, is religious freedom. They insist that the State should be given homage before any God.

    jar writes:

    That is simply not true Phat. Stop listening to all the lying Apologists and CCoI.

    Do you think thats all I listen to? I'm no dummy. I can listen to various media and discriminate truth from propaganda as well as anyone.

    Lets start with Wikipedia. Freedom of religion in China

    quote:
    Freedom of religion in China is provided for in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China,[1] with an important caveat: the government protects what it calls "normal religious activity," defined in practice as activities that take place within government-sanctioned religious organizations and registered places of worship. Although the dynastic governments of imperial China also claimed responsibility for the practice of religion, human rights bodies such as United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) have criticized this differentiation as falling short of international standards for the protection of religious freedom.[2]

    The ruling Communist Party of China officially espouses state atheism,[3] and has conducted antireligious campaigns to this end.[4] China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association.


    Look a bit harder at the Three-Self Patriotic Movement

    Wiki writes:

    When the TSPM was established in 1954, it promoted a three-self strategy in order to remove foreign influences from the Chinese churches and to assure the government that the churches would be patriotic to the newly established People's Republic of China.[12] Other Protestant leaders included Jia Yuming, Marcus Cheng,[13] and Yang Shaotang.[14]

    When "The Christian Manifesto" was published in the People's Daily in 1954, it pledged the support of Christians for anti-imperialism, anti-feudalism, and anti-bureaucratic capitalism efforts.[15] The movement, in the eyes of critics, allowed the government to infiltrate, subvert, and control much of organized Christianity.[16] (...)From 1966 to 1976 during the Cultural Revolution, the expression of religious life in China was effectively banned, including the TSPM. The growth of the Chinese house church movement during this period was a result of all Chinese Christian worship being driven underground for fear of persecution.[17] In 1979 the government officially restored the TSPM after thirteen years of non-existence,[16] and in 1980 the CCC was formed. However, many Christians in China were skeptical of the government's intention in re-instituting the TSPM, partly because those entrusted in its local administration were often ones who had participated in repressive actions in the past.[18][19][20]

    The TSPM is not a denomination, and denominational distinctions do not exist within the organization. Pastors are trained at one of thirteen officially sanctioned seminaries.[16] Current theological emphasis is on "a protection and promotion of the five basic tenets of Christian faith — the Trinity, Christ being both human and God, the Virgin Birth, Death and Resurrection and the Second Coming."[21] The primary role of the TSPM was then delegated to liaison with the Government whereas the CCC serves as an ecclesial organisation focusing on the internal management and affairs of the Church.[22][23]

    However, the TSPM is often charged with being an instrument for the secular Chinese government, which persecutes Christians outside of it. Independent congregation are known as house churches.[24] The attempt to bring house church Christians into the fold of "registered" meeting places has met with mixed results.[16] Since the ascension of Xi Jinping the Chinese Government has cracked down on house churches and oppressed their members, actions which the TSPM has supported.[25]

    In March 2019 Xu Xiaohong, the chairman of the National Three-Self Patriotic Movement Committee, gave a speech about the use of Christianity by western powers to destabilize China and the CCP. In addition he stated that "Anti-China forces in the West are attempting to continue to influence the social stability of our country through Christianity, and even subvert the political power of our country,” while speaking at the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.[26] He also called for continued state action against independent Christians stating “For individual black sheep who, under the banner of Christianity, participate in subverting national security, we firmly support the country to bring them to justice.”[25]

    Its all a sham. The government controls the church. Considering that there are 1.3 billion Chinese and at best 200 million Christians, less than half who actually know God, the charge that China has no real religious freedom is successfully presented.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by jar, posted 09-15-2020 1:40 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by jar, posted 09-15-2020 3:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 44 of 54 (884324)
    02-11-2021 6:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    09-14-2020 9:40 AM


    Globalism: An Unrealistic Destiny.
    Often, Liberals are painted as altruistic globalists who do not see a problem with forming a consensus with other sysstems of government and who believe that world peace is a worthwhile goal even at the expense of the democracy that birthed them. As a religious guy, I see much of the problem coming from some simple errors in your world views. You think that God is nothing more than a character in a book and that humans are fully responsible for forging their destinies. This is an error in that you then believe that humans MUST learn how to get along at any cost--even if that cost involves some of the freedoms that our systems of government have fought over and won for us at great cost Lets take China as one example of a system of government that, as Joe Biden puts it about their Chairman Xi Jinping.
    Biden writes:

    “He’s very bright. He’s very tough. He doesn’t have – and I don’t mean this as a criticism, just the reality – he doesn’t have a democratic ‘small d’ bone in his body.”

    Democracy is facing a challenge from this governing model.
    News.com.au writes:

    China is winning. Democracies are falling. Authoritarian ‘strong men’ are on the rise.

    “The theory of democracy as presented by Abraham Lincoln is on life support in the intensive care unit. People’s autocracy, as a governing model, will continue to emerge in many other nations in the days to come,” crows Beijing’s state-controlled media.

    Ethiopia, Haiti, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Myanmar, Russia, the United States. All are facing dramatic challenges to their democracies.

    But they’re just the tip of a teetering iceberg.

    International democracy think-tank Freedom House warns that internal – and foreign – forces are actively destabilising some 79 governments worldwide.



    We are in an era of “authoritarian resurgence” and “global democratic downturn”, warns the US-based National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

    It’s a battle for hearts and minds.

    “The leading authoritarians are challenging democracy at the level of ideas, principles, and standards, but only one side seems to be seriously competing in the contest,” its Democratic Responses to Expanding Authoritarian Influence report reads.

    And they’re playing dirty.

    I realize that war is not a good option, but when an adversary keeps shoving into your space and territory what other option do we have? Consensus will weaken our Democratic ideals.

    jar writes:

    The issue is that too many in the US are simply willfully stupid.

    Thinking we are at war with China is particularly stupid!

    Well if its not a war against our way of life and ideals that we have fought for in many wars and for many years, what is it then? Are we simply supposed to be spineless wimps like Neville Chamberlain was with Germany and attempt to let the autocrats win?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 09-14-2020 9:40 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by jar, posted 02-11-2021 7:25 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 46 by Stile, posted 02-12-2021 1:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 47 of 54 (884366)
    02-13-2021 8:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Stile
    02-12-2021 1:24 PM


    Re: Globalism: An Unrealistic Destiny.
    Stile writes:

    From the corrupt politicians who are running the democratic countries.

    And the only way to stop them is to hold them accountable.
    All of them.
    Democrats. Republicans.
    All of them.

    Without that - democracy will die, eventually. But not from abroad, it will die from within, while you're looking for the problem to be abroad.

    I agree. Some questions, though.

    How can one be accountable when the governing body is partisan politics? We have two ideologically competing groups. How does one forge a consensus (bipartisan) that the leaders need to be accountable to?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by Stile, posted 02-12-2021 1:24 PM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 48 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 6:54 AM Phat has responded
     Message 52 by Stile, posted 02-16-2021 11:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 49 of 54 (884376)
    02-14-2021 2:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 48 by jar
    02-14-2021 6:54 AM


    Re: Globalism: An Unrealistic Destiny.
    jar,in our ongoing argument writes:

    ...but before that can happen the Christian Cult of ********* must be replaced by those who place CONTENT over source.

    You insist that the people themselves map and chart the future and that the source (God) is irrelevant. This is a major flaw in your thinking and why we likely will never agree. I have seen evidence that God is real and interactive. I have also seen evidence that humans fail time and time again. I know where to place my bet.

    Note that I agree with much of what you say, but when you you say really stupid things like placing CONTENT over SOURCE, you only show the wilful ignorance of your critically thought out beliefs. You simply refuse to believe in a supernatural God and you prefer humans doing all of the work.

    Bottom line: We simply can't. He would never need to come back otherwise. I will agree with you that we owe it to ourselves to try and do our best. He likely expects the same effort.

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 6:54 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 50 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 2:13 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 51 of 54 (884379)
    02-14-2021 2:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 50 by jar
    02-14-2021 2:13 PM


    Re: Globalism: An Unrealistic Destiny.
    jar writes:

    You are of course free to wait for the god you created to do something but the rest of the world will simply go ahead and address their issues and needs and let the god you created handle yours.

    Your welfare is NOT their problem.

    IF The "god I create" happens to be the GOD Who actually is, it will become their problem...and opportunity. IF God actually plans on interaction and interference in the human experiment, it will become part of the future legacy. In the meantime, feel free to place CONTENT over SOURCE and go about your business, encouraging others to do the same. My mental state is not entirely Gods problem, though I can pray He help it. Perhaps He even uses you sometimes to attempt to get me to think. The Jury is out at the moment.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 2:13 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 53 of 54 (884408)
    02-16-2021 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 50 by jar
    02-14-2021 2:13 PM


    Re: Globalism: An Unrealistic Destiny.
    Your welfare is NOT their problem.
    On an individual level...perhaps. But what about a national level? Is the welfare of the US more important (to us) than the welfare of every human on the globe? Nationalists say yes. Globalists mayu say no. I dont trust globalists (or some nationalists) due to their fallible human selfish nature. I also do not think that surrendering individual welfare, or national welfare in the interests of globalism will ever work without a consensus on belief. Absolute truth must take precedence over relativistic comparative religions.

    If not, sho0w me why the GOD you believe in is so lovey dovey and rainbow centric.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by jar, posted 02-14-2021 2:13 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by jar, posted 02-16-2021 4:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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