Anti-theist

The reason that AZPaul3 made this anti theism diatribe was not only that he has a warped sense of amusement and mockery concerning my beliefs but that he feels entitled--obligated even to express his feelings which are 180 degrees removed from mine.

Yes, yes and yes. Can't very well have you out here proselytizing to the sheeple all alone.

... theism provides a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects.

In other words in theism he finds what he thinks is an excuse to believe in ghosts.

God provides the best explanation of why the universe exists rather than nothing.

The best? According to whom? By what criteria? Who determined that criteria?

A subjective evaluation at this level of discussion? Come on.

atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all.

And some say otherwise, because, in fact, we don't know, atheist or not, and neither does anyone else.

But surely this is unreasonable.

Why? Personal incredulity, again?

But, moot point. The fact that we don't know makes all speculations unreasonable. Some just way more unreasonable than others, in my subjective evaluation.

just because you guys have never found ANY Objective evidence concerning a (supernatural) spiritual realm it DOES exist...I've experienced it.

Of course you did. But you can't evidence it let alone prove it.

I can prove this universe. I can explain with hard evidence (in my layman's ways) everything we know and think we know about this universe. What I cannot evidence, nor even reasonably speculate on, are those things we do not know. Without evidence, Phat, there is nothing.

Craig cannot find the intellectual hooks for an eternal universe but can yet find a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects like ghosts and gods. His intellect is determined by his desired result.

What do you expect. He's a priest. He's demented.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

My belief IS my foundation.

Then you have no foundation.

Matt 7: 24-27

Can't very well have you out here proselytizing to the sheeple all alone.

Not to mention Phat's predilection for hiding in dark alleys in order to prey on young children in order to force his beliefs on them. Message 90:

Phat writes: If I catch your "kid" in a dark alley I shall freely and boldly share my faith and you and an army of liberal activists wont stop me. First, I will convince them that they need not shut me down. I certainly wouldn't force my beliefs...I would get their permission first.

Oh and BTW, those kids would not be able to give him that permission. Only the parents or guardians could do that. He had better hope that the police arrest him for molesting those kids before their parents can get their hands on him.

Nah. Craig's a good guy.

That's what makes him such a good candidate for Club Atheist.

He just thinks weird, that's all. We can work on that.

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Many of you will ask incredulously what Craig(WLC) feels is so unreasonable about logic, reason, and "reality"...while I myself will go so far as to suggest that reality is not always as it appears and that just because you guys have never found ANY Objective evidence concerning a (supernatural) spiritual realm it DOES exist...I've experienced it.

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Why have you experience it but billions of others haven't? Why are you special and I'm not? Why would a fair god reveal himself to you and not the Hindu, given that the stakes are our everlasting souls?

I suppose I cant get mad at you for using my own words against me...I was angry at the defiance of a culture that is turning its back on God. I would hurt no kids---including yours. Since we are stirring up the fires and disagreeing openly in this free-for-all topic, allow me to admit and openly acknowledge that you guys have been right in many cases which I defended and which were proven false.

Months ago, Theodoric told me that Ravi Zacharias was a fraud and a charlatan, and I quite naturally attempted to defend him...not knowing the full extent of his sins.

About the only thing I can defend or attempt to defend is my choice to represent Christianity and my growing awareness (which you all are tactfully encouraging) of my own public image regarding what it means to be a Christian. So I repent for my zealous defense of a man I honestly never knew.

Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias

The ministry itself is in tatters and it is readily apparent that a man with the reputation that Zacharias presented is striking a powerful blow against the rationality of Christianity itself. To their credit, they initiated their own private investigation.
Report of Independent Investigation into Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias released recently, February 9th, 2021.

I will admit that these allegations were proven beyond a reasonable doubt and that I ask myself why I, and many Christians, defend our own more than we likely would defend you.

Edited by Phat, : added links. I'm just reading this stuff today, after I blew up at you guys.

Tangle writes: Why have you experience it but billions of others haven't?

I believe that every soul will get an opportunity...likely in ways that none of us would even imagine.

Why are you special and I'm not?

I dont think that anyone is more special than anyone else, but the issue here is simply why some people understand a concept/belief before others do. That does not make them any smarter favored, or chosen.

Why would a fair god reveal himself to you and not the Hindu, given that the stakes are our everlasting souls?

Since I am defending my basic Theology, all the while attempting to learn, I can only agree with you regarding why. Its a question which we can speculate on possible answers. What I won't do is speculate that God likely does not exist.

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I believe that every soul will get an opportunity...likely in ways that none of us would even imagine.

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That's no answer is it? The fact is you have had the revelation and others have not.

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I dont think that anyone is more special than anyone else, but the issue here is simply why some people understand a concept/belief before others do. That does not make them any smarter favored, or chosen.

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What you believe is irrelevant, the fact is you were chosen to be given the revelation and Mrs Jones wasn't. Why?

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What I won't do is speculate that God likely does not exist.

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Then you can't learn. All you're actually prepared to do is accept information you already agree with.

Tangle writes: What you believe is irrelevant, the fact is you were chosen to be given the revelation and Mrs Jones wasn't. Why?

I stick by my belief that the supernatural will come out of the closet and that Christians will get stronger. They will also become more hated. (No, its not a martyr complex...it appears to be shaping up this way)

Then you can't learn. All you're actually prepared to do is accept information you already agree with.

When I am convinced in my own mind and heart that something is true, I don't readily throw my belief or conclusion away. You and others have claimed to have once been as Christian(Catholic) as I am and in my opinion you threw your belief away far to early and easily.

Phat writes: I stick by my belief that the supernatural will come out of the closet and that Christians will get stronger. They will also become more hated. (No, its not a martyr complex...it appears to be shaping up this way)

You mean the members of the Christian Cult of ********* will continue to mistake pity for hate? Sorry Phat but the CCoI is simply not a worthy of hate.

Hint. If the supernatural came out of the closet it would no longer be supernatural.

It might be the tyrant despot that you and the CCoI market but nothing more than your average Tyrant Despot.

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I stick by my belief that the supernatural will come out of the closet and that Christians will get stronger.

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The Jews have been waiting for that to happen longer than the Christians. It's just more self-importance that not only are you chosen personally while billions of others aren't, but also that all this other stuff will happen in YOUR lifetime that hasn't happened in all those years.

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They will also become more hated.

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No they won't Phat. No one but you fundies care about your stuff. So long as you get on doing whatever you do quietly and don't bother the rest of us, we simply don't care.

What will happen is what is happening, your religion will moderate and fade, that's all. It'll gradually die out like it's doing all over the modern world.

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(No, its not a martyr complex...it appears to be shaping up this way)

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It is a martyr complex. But without the martyrdom, just a part of your self-importance and apocalyptical thinking.

I was angry at the defiance of a culture that is turning its back on God.

You might as well be angry at the defiance of a culture that is turning its back on Alfred E. Neuman.

People cannot be defiant of a god unless they (a) believe that god exists and (b) are able to access whatever orders that god is supposedly giving.

You need to accept that there are people who do not believe that your god exists. And you need to accept that such people will pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The ministry itself is in tatters and it is readily apparent that a man with the reputation that Zacharias presented is striking a powerful blow against the rationality of Christianity itself.

Christianity (or the version that included Zacharias) did far more damage to itself when it went full out in support Donald Trump.

Don't go dissin on Alfred E now.

jar writes: It might be the tyrant despot that you and the CCoI market but nothing more than your average Tyrant Despot.

If you call yourself a Christian...no matter which club you claim membership in, there will be a Second Coming of the living Jesus Christ. God is not simply some philosophical concept that we made up.

The only Tyrant Despots that you or I will have to contend with will themselves be manifested through humans.

nwr writes: People cannot be defiant of a god unless they (a) believe that god exists and (b) are able to access whatever orders that god is supposedly giving.

I acknowledge that this is so.

You need to accept that there are people who do not believe that your god exists.

God is God. There is no "my God".

And you need to accept that such people will pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Christians and Atheists alike should both pay no attention to any Oz-like Charlatan who claims to be a resurrected Christ. In my belief, God exists in our realm only as the Holy Spirit.

Jesus will not come back again as a meek liberal feeding people and loving gays. He will come back once humans have been given their full opportunity to get it together on this planet and do their best. Only after they have failed will He intervene. And I am not of the same belief of Faith in that we will get Raptured out of here. It would make no sense for God to train up a people infused with love, empathy and power who He would then take off of the planet so that the rest of the people would be judged.

The Christians will, I predict, suffer along with everyone else, but keep in mind that God gave us brains as well as hearts and we owe it to ourselves to try and do our best. Where jar and I differ (among other things) is that he believes that humans need to throw God,Jesus, Holy Ghosts, and organized religion away and simply do as Jesus said to do whereas I believe that the name of Jesus should be proclaimed as well as emulated.

Christianity (or the version that included Zacharias) did far more damage to itself when it went full out in support Donald Trump.

I agree. Between Zacharias and the love of money (and massage parlors) the credibility of Christianity and organized religion was dealt what is likely a fatal blow. Personally, this all reinforces my belief that all was meant (and predicted) to happen, but I cannot absolve myself of a responsibility to all of my fellow humans and not falling for the idolatry of love of money and/or Thailand Masseuses.