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Author | Topic: Anti-theist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
nwr writes: I acknowledge that this is so.
People cannot be defiant of a god unless they (a) believe that god exists and (b) are able to access whatever orders that god is supposedly giving. You need to accept that there are people who do not believe that your god exists. God is God. There is no "my God". And you need to accept that such people will pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Christians and Atheists alike should both pay no attention to any Oz-like Charlatan who claims to be a resurrected Christ. In my belief, God exists in our realm only as the Holy Spirit. Jesus will not come back again as a meek liberal feeding people and loving gays. He will come back once humans have been given their full opportunity to get it together on this planet and do their best. Only after they have failed will He intervene. And I am not of the same belief of Faith in that we will get Raptured out of here. It would make no sense for God to train up a people infused with love, empathy and power who He would then take off of the planet so that the rest of the people would be judged. The Christians will, I predict, suffer along with everyone else, but keep in mind that God gave us brains as well as hearts and we owe it to ourselves to try and do our best. Where jar and I differ (among other things) is that he believes that humans need to throw God,Jesus, Holy Ghosts, and organized religion away and simply do as Jesus said to do whereas I believe that the name of Jesus should be proclaimed as well as emulated.
Christianity (or the version that included Zacharias) did far more damage to itself when it went full out in support Donald Trump. I agree. Between Zacharias and the love of money (and massage parlors) the credibility of Christianity and organized religion was dealt what is likely a fatal blow. Personally, this all reinforces my belief that all was meant (and predicted) to happen, but I cannot absolve myself of a responsibility to all of my fellow humans and not falling for the idolatry of love of money and/or Thailand Masseuses."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: True. I honestly have to consider that and live strongly regardless.
The Jews have been waiting for that to happen longer than the Christians. It's just more self-importance that not only are you chosen personally while billions of others aren't, but also that all this other stuff will happen in YOUR lifetime that hasn't happened in all those years. No one but you fundies care about your stuff. So long as you get on doing whatever you do quietly and don't bother the rest of us, we simply don't care. I know that you believe this and can see why you do believe it. It makes more logical and rational sense. The problem that I have with it is that you treat all religion(s) the same. Religion may be a human construct. Jesus Christ is not.
What will happen is what is happening, your religion will moderate and fade, that's all. It'll gradually die out like it's doing all over the modern world. Tangle writes: I'll give you that. Even if I turned out to be another Loon, I would prefer that rather than for all of us to be tragically wrong. It is a martyr complex. But without the martyrdom, just a part of your self-importance and apocalyptical thinking."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So you are telling me that He was NOT in the Beginning (as Gods human character) and that by inference God does not exist except as a human creation? If so we need to find you help. I suppose that we wont find much help in an anti-theism thread except perhaps a psychiatrist or two and mental health counseling. Perhaps our gracious host, AZPaul3, has some insight. Or perhaps he himself is the host for something else....
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Which leads to several questions.
John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the Word.Please, do the homework. Find anywhere in the rest of John or the whole New Testament where Jesus is referred to as the Word. Did God have any form? Consider Deut 4:15 writes: This suggests to me that those sitting around the fire surely did not see the fire as God...but they did hear a voice. Idolatry of any idol(a carved image...literally a carved imagination) was expressly forbidden. Other religions never shared this trait. They all carved their own little deities. You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Im sure that AZ Paul3 has many adornments through his humble abode. And we wont even count the Penthouse special full of all sorts of imagined objects of devotion! "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZ writes: Its a bit like treating a glass of water the same way that you would treat a Typhoon. Or treating an individual thought the way you would treat the whole brain/mind, were you contemplating the many qualities. Jesus is the same size as us....we can relate to a fellow human just as we can relate to ourselves. If The Borg or Q showed up one day and we had a brief opportunity, we most certainly would not talk to them the same way that we would a neighbor. So what’s missing that would cause you to treat god in the same way you treat jesus? Or is there some additional element here that prevents their both being treated alike? Jesus is Gods character. The Mediator. The Go-Between. Yet Trinitarians insist there is no redundancy."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Whats to argue? The Creator of all seen and unseen is not a mere man. I envision Him more as an energy field of immense depth, breadth, height, and mass----literally as Big or as Small as He needs ti be for any given manifestation. I see Jesus as in the beginning with God only in the sense that Jesus is Gods character.
Im not going to argue Biblical Semantics....Trinitarian Monotheism makes sense to me. For those who wish to go endless rounds arguing Biblical Inerrancy, I consider it a pointless argument. The Authors were inspired to write. They did not simply make up a book. If I believed otherwise, I would likely be an atheist along with the rest. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: But if you are a believer, what does the Spirit say to you? I can pretty much guarantee that in a room where believers are "in one accord" spiritually, everybody basically sees the same thing. It is only with weaker political Christians who claim Christianity yet dont have a clue who God is that you see problems. Obviously those who do not have a familiarity with the Holy Spirit by virtue of being skeptical critical thinkers or following another "spirit" of another religion wont get it either. If you regard it as a message from God, to the taken as literally true when describing (alleged) historical events, God has a distinct front and a back, as well as a definite physical presence. That is what it says. And I know that sounds elitist, but I don't mean it to sound that way...I'm simply laying out what I basically believe."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I mean, its just common sense. For me at least, I see God the Father as the Creator of all seen and unseen. Such a Being would likely have no definite form unless I professed to be a Pantheist or had some other religious icon. Perhaps jar has already described the "disconnect" in that he claims that many of the CCoI seek SOURCE (God or His Spirit) rather than CONTENT (That which is written and described by and through many written commentaries including those that are nt strictly Christian)
CONTENT is basically learning discipline in general...which includes Critical Thinking and the necessity for objective evidence. SOURCE only requires a belief and understanding. Form, objectivity, and verifiable evidence are optional. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: Despite jars abhorrence of them, some apologists offer what to me seems like a logical interpretation of the whole Jacob Wrestling Fiasco. Im not saying that I necessarily believe it exactly the way that it is described in this one example, but Were I to read the scripture, I likely would arrive at similar conclusions. There was an article in Christianity Today that asked the following question:
How does that square with rejecting a clearly relevant description from the Bible?Why Did God Make Jacob Wrestle With Him? I was intrigued by some of the suggested interpretations. I dont simply examine passages with critical thinking and imagined intent. I do tend to prefer Theo-centric explanations rather than human-centric ones. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Something tells me that you find more satisfaction in a quest for "dubiousness" rather than a quest for certainty.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What "truth" are you talking about? Be specific.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Thats what you teach but it is not conclusive. There are many teachers and many who call themselves Prophets. My sisters church in St.Louis had a zoom class recently where the lesson was the following:
Reporter Studies How Christians React When Prophets They Follow Err The Wired Word for the Week of February 28, 2021 Christian Prophets Are on the Rise. What Happens When They’re Wrong? Ruth Graham of the NY Times authored the article, among 3 cited in our Zoom Class. My sisters church is more liberal and moderate than Isaiah Saldivar, my guy whom I insist has insight and an anointing and is not merely one of jars fake carny barking apologists whom he often derisevly mentions. My point? Clearly there are and will be false prophets and false teachers. I do not value nor respect the approach that you guys give to Christian teaching. There most certainly is and was a GOD long before trees even grew so that paper could be harvested with which to even make the first scrolls which were the Logos inspiration of the One God in Heaven communing with the primitive minds and hearts of man on this one little dust speck of a planet. To assert that the Bible was originally a product only of human imagination is ignorant at best. Dont push the idea that God is simply a product of human imagination in my direction---for I have experienced too much to even consider it. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OMG Enough with this little Mousey Whiner akin to 1970's True Grit Lawyer J.Noble Dagget. I will grant you that his argument has merit in that it is logical. All of you have valid arguments if in fact God did not exist and interact with our species through the Holy Spirit sent by GOD through Jesus Christ shortly before He died and was resurrected.
But for some reason, a few of you missed it. And it is not Gods fault. It is just a result of your refusal to allow for Him to reveal Himself to your critically thinking skeptical minds. But its OK, AZ. You keep trying to get me to be an atheist and I will keep praying for better understanding of what I DO believe. The souls will fall where they may."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It looks to me like the critical thinking that you were taught blocked the possibility of you ever becoming a believer. It is as if you were handed the answer and rather than receive it, you wadded it up and tossed it away, likely the doctrine of an agnostic. You have even said before that agnosticism is a reasonable position and that in fact Islam is closer to the right path than is Biblical Christianity. Having never met Gods presence you have no internal reference point from your experiences. You were taught instead to ask how such a reference would be possible. You were taught to throw away easy answers and seek more questions.
Now tell me that I am misrepresenting what you say..."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
How many times must I point out that God is never found through evidence. Yoiu seem to think that IF GOD(God) were provable objectively that method alone would make Him knowable by everyone. And I would point out that this was never the expectation. Humans do not simply find God. God finds us. You evidently were too busy asking more questions and challenging the feeling (bad burrito, perhaps?) then you were accepting it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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