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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 530 (884744)
03-06-2021 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:06 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
Bezos is an individual running a business and if that business does not want to sell crap then that business has the right to not sell crap.
You and the rest of the Cult of Ignorance simply have no connection with reality. You simply get you puerile panties in a wad when folk point out that your idols are pouting crap, lies and misinformation and so refuse to make it easy to con the rubes.
No one is censoring the current crop of fascists, they are still allowed to publish their books and spew their spiel but they have no right to try to force others to distribute their crap.

My Website: My Website

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 137 of 530 (884745)
03-06-2021 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
03-06-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
Amazon Begins Censoring Books
Amazon made a business decision on how best to maximize their profits. This isn't censorship -- it is capitalism.
I must say that I side with the conservatives on this one. This whole idea of relativism as a world view is wrong on so many levels.
Conservatives are relativists. They deny that, of course. But you only have to watch them to see their relativism at work.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 138 of 530 (884746)
03-06-2021 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:01 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
quote:
But I do respect Ben Shapiro and his intelligence.
I don’t. His interview with Andrew Neill ended up with him accusing Neill of being a biased liberal. (Neill is very Conservative, used to be chief editor of the Sunday Times for Murdoch).
quote:
My point is that Conservatism does not automatically equate to evil
I never thought it did. The problem is that plenty of Conservatives aren’t exactly good people. Shapiro isn’t, for one.
The radical right who’ve embraced Trump seem pretty evil, though. But they aren’t meaningfully Conservative.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 139 of 530 (884747)
03-06-2021 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:06 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
I don’t think that one business refusing to carry a book amounts to suppressing it. Even one as big as Amazon. And what is your alternative?
quote:
My beef is with Bezos. Who in the hell does he think he is?
The guy who owns the business and can decide that they aren’t going to sell something?
Isn’t that something that Conservatives say he should be able to do?
Or does that principle suddenly go out of the window when he does something that Conservatives don’t like?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 140 of 530 (884748)
03-06-2021 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
03-06-2021 1:23 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
On a related issue the owners of the Dr Seuss books have decided to take 6 of the less popular titles out of print, citing concerns about the content.
Conservatives naturally cite this as Liberal Censorship - although they often discuss different books that are staying in print (odd that). They are even buying large quantities of the other books, as if giving money to the company that made the decision is some sort of punishment.
It’s pretty clear that the Conservative reaction is not very rational or concerned with the truth,

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 141 of 530 (884749)
03-06-2021 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by nwr
03-06-2021 12:46 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
nwr writes:
Conservatives are relativists. They deny that, of course. But you only have to watch them to see their relativism at work.
You get me to think. Or at least to investigate what others say...that's one way that I gain some sort of perspective on the consensus of popular culture and the ideology that is expressed. Now...one thing that EvC has taught me is that things are not always as they seem. So in my search for confirmation (or challenge for) your statement, I found Stephen Law.
Liberals Are Relativists
quote:
This is the website/blog of Philosopher Stephen Law. Stephen is retired, formerly Reader in philosophy at Heythrop College, University of London. He is editor of the Royal Institute of Philosophy journal THINK, and has published books including The Philosophy Gym, The Complete Philosophy Files, and Believing Bullshit.
Of course I found several others which agreed more along the lines of my bias, but I compared 5 or 6 sources from the search engine and thought that Laws challenged my bias the most.
I don't defend conservatism nor liberalism as much as I defend my belief that God exists, is alive through Jesus Christ, and is not simply some human derived character in a book. My faith is getting more broad based if not stronger. I seriously doubt that I would ever leave it as many did here at EvC. I still cant figure out why you people think the way you do and choose to believe what you do, but I keep plugging away.
Edited by Phat, : added features

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by nwr, posted 03-06-2021 12:46 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 530 (884750)
03-06-2021 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by PaulK
03-06-2021 1:13 PM


Ben There Done That
Wiki writes:
In May 2019, Neil interviewed Ben Shapiro, an American conservative commentator, on Politics Live on BBC Two.[69][70][71][72][73][74] Shapiro was promoting his new book, The Right Side of History, which discusses Judaeo-Christian values and asserts their decline in the United States.[70] Several combative instances during the interview gained viral attention, including Shapiro walking out.[71] Shapiro later apologized for the incident.[70]
I'm searching for that interview now. Once I watch it, I may have further comment.
Edited by Phat, : as I gather information...

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 03-06-2021 1:13 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 530 (884751)
03-06-2021 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
03-06-2021 2:53 PM


Why You People Think The Way You Do
Earlier, I said Message 141
I still cant figure out why you people think the way you do and choose to believe what you do, but I keep plugging away.
While looking at Professor laws blog, I found a response from one of his critics/colleagues (Larry Hamelin) that encapsulated and that may explain how many of you think.
quote:
As you note, the passage might not be an accurate representation. Without even a single substantive quotation, I'm utterly unable to have any opinion whatsoever on Sim himself or his book.
As you might have (correctly) inferred from my earlier comments, I don't give the humanities the same benefit of academic methodology that I give scientists.
I'm very skeptical about work in the academic humanities. This is not to say that I simply disbelieve everything, but I do want to see the whole argument and sufficient data every time to draw any conclusion from any work.
My skepticism isn't due to perceived ethical failings within the humanities vs. the sciences (although I have seen anecdotes of unconscionable intellectual slack), but rather because the subject matter of the humanities is inherently more ambiguous and ungrounded in experiment. (...)I think I also should say that as a professional engineer and an amateur scientist, I tend to use words such as "skepticism" in their scientific sense. Both the humanities and the sciences draw terminology from each other, but often change the substantive meaning.
"Skepticism" is a perfect case in point. It's original use in ancient Greek philosophy seems to connote a radical epistemic nihilism. In the sciences, however, it simply means not believing an idea except insofar as you've actually tested it against experiment.
Now Sim might well mean "skepticism" in the original philosophical sense. I don't know. As a scientist, however, the idea of being skeptical about Enlightenment values is entirely unproblematic. In the scientific sense, of course I should be skeptical. Even the Enlightenment values are not unquestionable dogma; I should investigate what the are and test them against my own understanding and my own moral intuitions before I approve of them, even (and perhaps especially) if it is my own understand and intuition that are changed by the persuasive power of the work.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

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 Message 141 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 2:53 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 144 of 530 (884752)
03-06-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:06 PM


Is resisting anti-semitism cancel culture?
Suppose there were a set of children’s picture books and some of the characters in those books had obvious Jewish names and those characters were depicted with unnaturally long noses. Would it be cancel culture for a book store owner to refuse to carry those books? Or might he/she/they just be exercising good business sense in not wanting to insult a part of their customer base?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 145 of 530 (884753)
03-06-2021 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
03-06-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
The main point you need to understand is that humans are fallible.
That is hardly an anti-Christian idea - in fact most Christians will affirm it.
Skepticism, in the sense used by Larry Hamelin and Sim recognises that. Human claims should not be confused with absolute truth. Even our own claims should not be - we absolutely should recognise our own fallibility and take steps to account for it. It is not that there is no absolute truth or even that humans can’t make absolutely true statements. It’s just that very few statements made by humans can be shown to be absolutely true.
The main conflict is not over whether there is an absolute truth. It is over human claims to have absolute truth. Should those claims be accepted as absolute truth in the absence of evidence ? Why ?

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 146 of 530 (884754)
03-06-2021 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
03-06-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
You cant argue against his absolute truth logic. Moral relativism, while free to profess, is not a default standard.
Yeah I can because there is nothing absolute in any of his subjective evaluations. Relative morality is not just the standard it is the only course available to reality.
And Phat, why would you hold up this radical religious nazi as your "boy"?
Man, please don't tell me you've fallen into fascism.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 147 of 530 (884755)
03-06-2021 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
03-06-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
And the most recent essay on Stephen Law’s blog is absolutely relevant.
For the record I hold that female circumcision is wrong, and astrology is bunk.
(Morality is a bit fraught and I think it tends to fall between what Laws calls interesting relativism and conceptual relativism. On the other hand, strology would need a lot of watering down to get to a position where it’s sort of defensible)

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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 148 of 530 (884757)
03-06-2021 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
03-06-2021 4:10 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Oh posh.
Just because morality is relative does not mean it is immune to human ideals as the specie's humanism evolves.
And on both of these issues the consensus in the human community is that female mutilation is disgustingly barbaric and that astrology is bullshit. We, as a world, will now work to stop the one and marginalize the other.
Morality is still relative. The human give-and-take over larger populations determines morality. Maybe coded into law or just social mores.
The society, en masse, determines its social morality and determines, en masse, what conduct we will and will not tolerate. And, being separate human societies, these can differ one to another. Where two come together, as the Somalis are finding out, is where one will dominate the other.
I make no judgement right or wrong on whether one should dominate or not. It is a fact of the human condition. And as the world community interacts more closely certain moral practices will need to alter at the demand of the whole world.
Morality is still relative and we, as a society, will determine how, when, why it will change and ...
... as societies become more intertwined the larger global community will determine what actions are/not moral if your dinky little Somali region wants to join the rest of us as equals.
Even our morality is not out of the jungle and like everything else only the fit memes will survive as society, ever and ever larger, evolves its zeitgeist.
Where does this eminent philosopher get off on calling differing opinions on morality differing truths?
This has nothing to do with the relativity of truth, but the relative perceptions of human actions. What our eminent philosopher is going on about is not truth but one’s personal religious-like zeal for what one perceives as moral.
Then they take these perceptions as truths and treat them like mathematical truths, put them through their philosophical gristmill and, lo and behold, contradictions, controversy and existential gnashing of teeth.
No, opposing female genital mutilation does not equate to excusing the holocaust any more than natural evolution can excuse the excesses of eugenics.
Truth should be reserved to absolute knowledge. But since there isn’t such a thing we have to settle for what we can evidence more or less strongly. The laws of physics are as close as we come to truth and even the strongest of them are tentative.
I will respectfully reject the treatment our philosophical friend offers on moral relativism. He is so high up his ivory tower he has lost the reality of the human condition.
Philosophers are just so useless. Each and every one of us.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 03-06-2021 4:10 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 149 of 530 (884759)
03-07-2021 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by AZPaul3
03-06-2021 6:55 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Seems like you missed the point if the essay.
quote:
Where does this eminent philosopher get off on calling differing opinions on morality differing truths?
He doesn’t. In fact you seem closer to that view than he is. If morality is purely decided by social consensus (I say that there is a bit more to it than that) then different societies can have different moral truths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2021 6:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 530 (884760)
03-07-2021 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
03-07-2021 6:21 AM


AZ Paul, J.Noble Daggett, and Anti Em.
We could start with this:
1) Truth-Noun
Websters writes:
Definition of truth
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a(1) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality
(2) : the state of being the case : fact
(3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true truths of thermodynamics
c : the body of true statements and propositions
2a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
b chiefly British : true sense 2
c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
3a : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
b archaic : fidelity, constancy
4 capitalized, Christian Science : god
in truth
: in accordance with fact : actually
In regards to this, critics may say that quite obviously the evolving Bibles were written, edited,redacted and used by man. They will assert that there is no evidence in support of a supernatural omnipresent GOD or God or even gods...and demonic as well as angelic entities. I get it. I felt the same way and understand your embrace of the obvious.
Those of us who are believers are not simply believers due to our own willful ignorance. We all had a defining salvation experience, however. We all felt a definite change in our inner character. And those of us who bother arguing with you and others have learned that we will not ever convince you. Most of us simply move on to those whom we can convert. (Yes, jar...CONvert.)
A few of us, such as myself, keep arguing and honing our own beliefs up against the thought processes and critical thinking of yourself and others. I actually applaud the critical thinking process that you use, though I won't take it as far as many of you do.
I will NOT throw God away.
I will NOT doubt...and would feel personally ashamed were I to embrace doubt willfully. I do admit that I have doubts appear in my mind at times, but I have chosen to cast vain imaginations down. This is NOT willful ignorance.
This IS Willful Belief!
AZ can and likely will use the vain imaginations of J.Noble Daggett(Mr.Deity) and his adopted prophet Sam Harris to counter the Apostle Paul and any more whom I will bring in, but you cant have a good topic without Anti. Perhaps I shall call her Auntie Em.
Next we can discuss what Pilate asked Jesus: What Is Truth? We may well add the corallary: What are opinions? What are beliefs? Must they all be relative? Is there any such thing as an absolute? And y'all know where I stand on that.
You may have told me your thought processes before...I have not researched our past posts together. Yet.
Edited by Phat, : J.Noble Daggetts Picture added.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

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 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 6:21 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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