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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
FLRW
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 181 of 530 (884825)
03-09-2021 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by AZPaul3
03-09-2021 3:12 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. Some people may think of objective morality as commandments from God, while other people may think the universe has some objective rules we may follow. There are certainly some arguments for objective morality to be had. Religious people will define objective morality according to the commandments of their god(s). Other people may look at some universal laws such as murder being inherently bad.
Objective morality says that morality exists in natureit's how we were programmed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 1:36 PM FLRW has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 182 of 530 (884826)
03-09-2021 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by FLRW
03-09-2021 12:06 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation.
How did it get into your brain?
Were you told the do's and don'ts or did these ideas just appear in your consciousness fully formed?
I suspect such were the products of acculturation, schooling. I see no other viable vector for moral opinions. That would indicate to me that the moral truth being discussed is not objectively determined (innate to our physically composed brain or from some disembodied reservoir of objective morals pooled somewhere by nature) but is subjectively determined, and is taught as highly prized, highly conserved and vigorously enforced conduct by society.
Is objective being interpreted as popular across (most) cultures?
We have learned that things operate better for society if, in disagreement, we don't go around shooting people dead in the streets. That is a moral opinion that is strongly taught, conserved and enforced by most societies, but not all. That's about as objective as we seem to get in society. I don't think objectively determined moral memes exist.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by FLRW, posted 03-09-2021 12:06 PM FLRW has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by FLRW, posted 03-09-2021 2:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
FLRW
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 183 of 530 (884828)
03-09-2021 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
03-09-2021 1:36 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
See the study titled , How does morality work in the brain? A functional and structural perspective of moral behavior
by
Leo Pascual, Paulo Rodrigues, and David Gallardo-Pujol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 1:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 4:00 PM FLRW has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 184 of 530 (884829)
03-09-2021 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by FLRW
03-09-2021 2:59 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Got it. Thank you.
I love the way they go thru every brain lobe and what we know of each cognitive function they think impacts their study.
They don't find any moral locus that lights up consistently but when tested the signals are apparently tied strongly to other areas covering cognitive function and emotion.
It's like the brain has to be thinking on the issue for the moral circuitry to light up.
No hint at what built this moral circuitry, god, or neural plasticity over time.
But this covers, as far as I can tell, moral opinions already in the brain. How'd it get there?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by FLRW, posted 03-09-2021 2:59 PM FLRW has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 185 of 530 (884830)
03-09-2021 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by AZPaul3
03-09-2021 3:12 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Its pretty cut and dried between you and I. I believe though cannot prove that "it" originates from an outside Source(God) whom we humans choose to be in communion with or not. My critics correctly point out that I have no evidence thus no valid and-verifiable belief. I counter with the idea that they, having not encountered (or experienced or felt or became aware of) Holy Communion have no reference point and can only make fun of and marginalize mine.
Your position is essentially that humans all the way down (rather than turtles) brings rationality to your (and others) reasons for lack of belief. You might argue that without evidence (that is somehow available also to the unbeliever) believers have no case and thus you win by default.
Am I close?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2021 12:09 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 186 of 530 (884833)
03-10-2021 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
03-09-2021 7:46 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
I'm looking for reality here, Phat
Unsupported assertions about gods in holy communion don't count.
And, yes, you have it right, without hard evidence (not conjectures, stories, twisted syllogisms) to support the physical structure and operation of god, well, then your god and his influence are non-existent.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 03-09-2021 7:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 03-10-2021 11:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 530 (884838)
03-10-2021 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by AZPaul3
03-10-2021 12:09 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
AZPaul3 writes:
I'm looking for reality here, Phat
Unsupported assertions about gods in holy communion don't count.
And, yes, you have it right, without hard evidence (not conjectures, stories, twisted syllogisms) to support the physical structure and operation of god, well, then your god and his influence are non-existent.
IF God exists He exists regardless of what our science and evidence can or cannot prove. Christian believers have support in the way of experience. They need not prove this objectively. Everyone was never meant to accept God en masse. The decision was left up to us individually. Critics contend that such a "God" is unworthy of worship, but they don't understand that Gods character is not defined by and through the book exclusively...most notably the Old Testament. You guys really need to let go of your argument from evil. Once you understand that we dont simply believe in a character described in a book but a living palpable presence, you can then freely choose to reject such a character....but you DO have a choice. You need not go with scientific logic that denies the likelihood of such a God unless you really dont support the idea of a Deity regardless.
Critics contend that they dont give any more thought to God than they would a Leprechaun, but one is imagined by humans and one isn't. One lie that you were taught also is that God is entirely a product of human imagination.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2021 12:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2021 1:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 03-11-2021 11:17 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 188 of 530 (884846)
03-10-2021 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
03-10-2021 11:32 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
IF God exists He exists regardless of what our science and evidence can or cannot prove.
No. He can't. If he exists in this universe we would have evidence. Can't be helped. Everything in this universe leaves a churned up wake of matter/energy in its path through space-time. Especially something as heavy-handed, invasive and destructive as your jesus/god/allah thing is supposed to be.
They need not prove this objectively.
Of course they do. Nothing exempts Christians from the requirement of providing evidence. Majik is not acceptable. The standard priest's response of "Because we say so" is not acceptable.
Evidence would be acceptable except you haven't got any and that is like really really bad for your position. Sorta fatal, actually.
You guys really need to let go of your argument from evil.
Has god renounced evil? Are we all going to paradise now? If he does this I'll stop throwing evil in his face.
Once you understand that we dont simply believe in a character described in a book but a living palpable presence, you can then freely choose to reject such a character.
Phat, Phat, it's not only WHAT you believe that is bad, sick, evil, and lots of other snarky words, but the fact that you DO believe that is the real poison in the intellect of this species. Imaginary ghosts, demons, devils?
Phat, in this day of increasing knowledge and enlightenment have you any idea how twisted and stunted a man's mind has to be to be so stuck in the 1400's?
We have entire societies with this disease.
One lie that you were taught also is that God is entirely a product of human imagination.
Actually, it's a conclusion I drew after researching religion(s), history, psychology and like that.
I'm atheist. We don't have priests going around teaching lies about others. That's you guys.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 03-10-2021 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by FLRW, posted 03-10-2021 4:45 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
FLRW
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 189 of 530 (884852)
03-10-2021 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by AZPaul3
03-10-2021 1:49 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
DNA evidence has long suggested that apes and Old World monkeys diverged from a common ancestor between 25 million and 30 million years ago. I would guess that morals deveoped in animal brains that led to animals that were kind to it's species having numerous offspring and animals that killed or scared off most members of it's species died before they had offspring. You can see moral behavior in your pets today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2021 1:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 190 of 530 (884876)
03-11-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
03-10-2021 11:32 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Phat writes:
Christian believers have support in the way of experience.
As I keep telling you, everybody has experiences. Christians interpret their experiences in Christian terms. Rational people interpret their experiences in rational terms.
Phat writes:
Critics contend that such a "God" is unworthy of worship, but they don't understand that Gods character is not defined by and through the book exclusively...
"God's character" is defined in your head, to fit the lack of evidence. "Everyone was never meant to accept God en masse," is a handy copout, made up in your head to fit the reality.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 03-10-2021 11:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 03-12-2021 2:11 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 191 of 530 (884895)
03-12-2021 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
03-11-2021 11:17 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
ringo writes:
"Everyone was never meant to accept God en masse," is a handy copout, made up in your head to fit the reality.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 03-11-2021 11:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 03-12-2021 11:07 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 192 of 530 (884896)
03-12-2021 7:25 AM



Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 193 of 530 (884898)
03-12-2021 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Phat
03-12-2021 2:11 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
As I have pointed out to you before, you're the one who is looking for the easy broad path. I'm offering nothing but blood, sweat, toil and tears.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 03-12-2021 2:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 03-12-2021 2:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 194 of 530 (884902)
03-12-2021 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
03-12-2021 11:07 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
The difference also is that I believe that I can and am in communion through prayer with a living God and not simply obeying the rules of some ancient book. You of course (or other critics) charge me with fantasy and a disconnect from evidential reality. I could charge (though not objectively prove) you guys with the same flaw. When is the last time you talked(prayed communed with) God? How can you be so sure that I am disconnected with reality while you guys are rational and logically sane? How do you know that you are not deceived?
You may think that a guy who claims to hear wisdom in his mind is delusional, but I would say that a guy who simply listens to a character in a book and does not believe that the character is actually real is just as delusional.
And by the way....all this advice you give....do you yourself follow it?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 03-12-2021 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by AZPaul3, posted 03-12-2021 3:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 196 by jar, posted 03-12-2021 3:22 PM Phat has replied
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 03-13-2021 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 195 of 530 (884905)
03-12-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Phat
03-12-2021 2:39 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
When is the last time you talked(prayed communed with) God? How can you be so sure that I am disconnected with reality while you guys are rational and logically sane?
Because the god I talk to, the one spirit I commune with, is the strange one in my head that makes me do stuff ... me.
And, yeah, we get off on some fantasy disconnects. You're not the only one disconnected from reality.
I just do it in a rational and logically sane way so I can find my way back.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 03-12-2021 2:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
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