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Author | Topic: Conversations with God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We could start with this:
1) Truth-NounWebsters writes: Definition of truth (Entry 1 of 2)1a(1) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (2) : the state of being the case : fact (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true truths of thermodynamics c : the body of true statements and propositions 2a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : true sense 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard 3a : sincerity in action, character, and utterance b archaic : fidelity, constancy 4 capitalized, Christian Science : god in truth : in accordance with fact : actually In regards to this, critics may say that quite obviously the evolving Bibles were written, edited,redacted and used by man. They will assert that there is no evidence in support of a supernatural omnipresent GOD or God or even gods...and demonic as well as angelic entities. I get it. I felt the same way and understand your embrace of the obvious. Those of us who are believers are not simply believers due to our own willful ignorance. We all had a defining salvation experience, however. We all felt a definite change in our inner character. And those of us who bother arguing with you and others have learned that we will not ever convince you. Most of us simply move on to those whom we can convert. (Yes, jar...CONvert.) A few of us, such as myself, keep arguing and honing our own beliefs up against the thought processes and critical thinking of yourself and others. I actually applaud the critical thinking process that you use, though I won't take it as far as many of you do. I will NOT throw God away. I will NOT doubt...and would feel personally ashamed were I to embrace doubt willfully. I do admit that I have doubts appear in my mind at times, but I have chosen to cast vain imaginations down. This is NOT willful ignorance.This IS Willful Belief! AZ can and likely will use the vain imaginations of J.Noble Daggett(Mr.Deity) and his adopted prophet Sam Harris to counter the Apostle Paul and any more whom I will bring in, but you cant have a good topic without Anti. Perhaps I shall call her Auntie Em. Next we can discuss what Pilate asked Jesus: What Is Truth? We may well add the corallary: What are opinions? What are beliefs? Must they all be relative? Is there any such thing as an absolute? And y'all know where I stand on that. You may have told me your thought processes before...I have not researched our past posts together. Yet. Edited by Phat, : J.Noble Daggetts Picture added. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: It seems to me, at least at first glance, that AZPaul3 advocates that there are no other moral truth absolutes apart from the judgement of a greater society. In other words, marginalized groups need to get on board with the consensus for the consensus itself is the only hypothetical absolute that there is. Which I of course disagree with. Humans are not God...whether literally or collectively. AZ would of course argue that God is a myth, yet often jokingly suggests that he himself is the Creator.... a thinly veiled attempt at humor yet a prospect which I think he actually believes at some level. The collective opinions and beliefs of all humans on the planet still does not equate to any sort of a mandate for authority.
This is the first time in this discussion you have said that there are no moral truths, and even then you seem to contradict that. If you can’t even be clear about the basics of your own position how can you hope to have a meaningful discussion? AZPaul3 writes: See? The question then becomes whether morality (right or wrong set aside) as manifested in human society stems from some evolution of ideas or from some absolute source. We humans are responsible. Or we ought to be. God--Creator of all seen and unseen gives us the ability which we are charged to respond to. Being responsible is a communion between the ability of the Creator and the response of the humans. Any other communion/consensus is simply fake. Best call J.Noble Daggett. You will need legal advice. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Its pretty cut and dried between you and I. I believe though cannot prove that "it" originates from an outside Source(God) whom we humans choose to be in communion with or not. My critics correctly point out that I have no evidence thus no valid and-verifiable belief. I counter with the idea that they, having not encountered (or experienced or felt or became aware of) Holy Communion have no reference point and can only make fun of and marginalize mine.
Your position is essentially that humans all the way down (rather than turtles) brings rationality to your (and others) reasons for lack of belief. You might argue that without evidence (that is somehow available also to the unbeliever) believers have no case and thus you win by default. Am I close?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: IF God exists He exists regardless of what our science and evidence can or cannot prove. Christian believers have support in the way of experience. They need not prove this objectively. Everyone was never meant to accept God en masse. The decision was left up to us individually. Critics contend that such a "God" is unworthy of worship, but they don't understand that Gods character is not defined by and through the book exclusively...most notably the Old Testament. You guys really need to let go of your argument from evil. Once you understand that we dont simply believe in a character described in a book but a living palpable presence, you can then freely choose to reject such a character....but you DO have a choice. You need not go with scientific logic that denies the likelihood of such a God unless you really dont support the idea of a Deity regardless. I'm looking for reality here, Phat Unsupported assertions about gods in holy communion don't count. And, yes, you have it right, without hard evidence (not conjectures, stories, twisted syllogisms) to support the physical structure and operation of god, well, then your god and his influence are non-existent. Critics contend that they dont give any more thought to God than they would a Leprechaun, but one is imagined by humans and one isn't. One lie that you were taught also is that God is entirely a product of human imagination. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: "Everyone was never meant to accept God en masse," is a handy copout, made up in your head to fit the reality."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The difference also is that I believe that I can and am in communion through prayer with a living God and not simply obeying the rules of some ancient book. You of course (or other critics) charge me with fantasy and a disconnect from evidential reality. I could charge (though not objectively prove) you guys with the same flaw. When is the last time you talked(prayed communed with) God? How can you be so sure that I am disconnected with reality while you guys are rational and logically sane? How do you know that you are not deceived?
You may think that a guy who claims to hear wisdom in his mind is delusional, but I would say that a guy who simply listens to a character in a book and does not believe that the character is actually real is just as delusional. And by the way....all this advice you give....do you yourself follow it?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It is possible that out of many religions only one is correct. When you consider everything as relative you are simply taking the spot in your mind and heart that a God would belong in and forming your own conclusion based on logic, reason, and reality. The question then would become whether the GOD Who is would want you to endlessly ask questions instead of accepting Her as the answer. You obviously belittle me for accepting God. And I wonder why you feel led to ask questions for eternity instead of choosing which answers to accept.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
When is the last time you talked(prayed communed with) God?ringo writes:
And
Nobody ever did. People can talk at whatever god they believe in and they can believe that they hear it talking to them - but there is no more reality in you "communing" with God than there is in somebody else communing with Quetzalcoatl. jar writes: Which equates to "all Gods are simply the creation of humans."[/qs] And I totally, emphatically, and passionately disagree with your assessments. I would bet my life that you "guys" are incorrect and unable...never mind unwilling...to see it or understand it from my perspective.
and all the evidence is that ALL religions are simply the creation of humans.jar writes: To the best of my awareness and knowledge I swear on a stack of Bibles that this "God" I market is the One who created both you and I. I did NOT create Him, though I am only starting to really understand His character.
I do not belittle you but rather I belittle the god you create and market.Phat writes: IF God exists He exists regardless of what our science and evidence can or cannot prove AZPaul3 writes: You assume that we would have evidence. Some of us claim to have it....in the form of an inner awareness and realization. The rest of you either don't care to pay much mind or call us batshit crazy for imagining that we are enlightened. IF God exists and is desiring communion with humans, it cant be helped. Throughout History we have made these claims, been persecuted, and were willing to die for our beliefs rather than renounce them.
No. He can't. If he exists in this universe we would have evidence. Can't be helped.AZPaul3 writes: Sez you. This is why society is split. You guys claim that the default standards are defined by you. We claim that our belief is and always will be our default and in fact should be yours. Or is yours without your knowledge.
Nothing exempts Christians from the requirement of providing evidence. Majik is not acceptable. The standard priest's response of "Because we say so" is not acceptable. We have entire societies with this disease. We too have entire societys of people who willfully deny God and claim that they simply see no evidence. Y'all know darn well what it is you are denying(Absolute Authority) and will be judged accordingly. Fair warning. And no, it wont be us who fight you. It will be the Spirit that you deny exists. He wont have a mountain range of relative deities. We have graduated beyond polytheism and the subtle lie of pantheism, which is actually monism."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I read what you said and am digesting the implications. But I ont fully agree with your conclusions without some elaboration.
Jim Jones was a Christian. If so, he most definitely had mental illness issues...as did Hitler, by the way.
The Christian Nationalists are Christians. Perhaps many are, but we need to revisit our discussion (and unlikely consensus) on what defines a Christian aside from mere declaration.
The anti-vaxer's are Christians. They dont trust what you and ringo and AZ Paul call "the rational people". They feel threatened by the idea that the secular society insists on defining morality and protocol and never admitting that a globalist agenda may not automatically be the best step for humanity. You dont believe in original sin or that people are selfish by nature. You seem to think that God simply loves and accepts everybody regardless if they acknowledge Him or not.
The Creationists are Christians. I claim to be a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that GOD is the source for everything. All matter, energy, and life itself are due to His input. I do not necessarily believe that God created earth the way that Ken Ham preaches, however. Science has proven a lot of biological processes.
The vast majority of the Global Warming deniers are Christians. They are conservatives who fell for political propoganda rather than using their brains.
The Crusaders were Christians. True.
The Pogroms were Christian acts. Perhaps.Wiki writes: Christian Acts should follow the teaching of jesus. should. ! Reality shows us that many Christians are like me. They profess the teachings of Christ yet are unable to achieve the suffering and denial thus required.
The noun pogrom, which has a relatively short history, is used in English and many other languages as a loanword, possibly borrowed from Yiddish (where the word takes the form פאָגראָם).[13] Its widespread circulation in today's world began with the antisemitic violence in the Russian Empire in 1881–1883. A series of genocidal persecutions, or pogroms, against Jews took place in Russia. These arose from a variety of motivations, not all of them related to Christian antisemitism. They have been attributed in part to religiously motivated antisemitism arising from the canard that Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.[9][10] The primary trigger of the pogroms, however, was the assassination of Tsar Alexander II.[11] The first pogrom is often considered to be the 1821 anti-Jewish riots in Odessa (modern Ukraine) after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, in which 14 Jews were killed.[12] The virtual Jewish encyclopedia claims that initiators of 1821 pogroms were the local Greeks that used to have a substantial diaspora in the port cities of what was known as Novorossiya.[13] [ The Genocide of the Americas were Christian Acts. Nope. Not everything a Christian does is a Christian act. Though you do have a point regarding guilt by association.
The Holocaust was carried out by Christians as a Christian duty. Most citizens...never mind, Christians, conflate Christian moral duty with patriotic moral duty. ringo does have a point in his accusation that I never do what Jesus said. In a literal word sense, he is right. Several angels would have to appear for me to even be able to give half of what I own towards others. Maybe my critics are right. Maybe I actually don't trust Jesus. I will say, however, that even snakes have their hand out. Jesus is to me more than simply a character in a book. Critics can say I make Him up in my head. This may or may not be true...I honestly don't think so. I listen to my conscience and heart which is at war with my natural fears of abandonment, lack, and survival.
Yet you and so many others simply fall back on your anthem. Guilty. Not sure what the anthem is, but you likely have a point. Im human. Im selfish by nature due to certain lifelong insecurities. I feel that God is changing me slowly only as I allow, but that there is no way I will or would give my hard earned resources away to just anybody. I see that as satan stealing from me.
You claim that you did not commit the atrocities; that you are not responsible; that you are not like them; but there is no outcry from you or most other Christians condemning and opposing and sanctioning those very same elements that still exist in much of Christianity today. Still thinking about this one. Edited by Phat, : clarity "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps. But I think it far fetched to label every single anti vaxxer as mentally ill or unstable. And I worry that in the future, the "rational" secular majority will label anyone who is religious as mentally unstable as well. They dont get to use the standard which they have adopted to govern everybody. Hence why we have division in this country. (And im even giving you the benefit of the doubt on liberal non-authoritarians being rational.)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If more of us agree to it then, yah, we do. You did it for a couple millennia. Now it's our turn. Yeah it is prophesied that you will get your turn. You will be the ones ridiculing and denigrating Christianity and all of our fringe woo woo stuff until you realize that its real but by then the planet will be in flames and going down quickly.
.You will likely say that this is fake, though I know for a fact that it is real. Isaiah explains basic Christianity quite well. Yes, I know you refuse to even consider anything that you cant prove...;but part of the problem of many of your attitudes is a product of the spiritual war within you. The main challenge for you is to trust God, the Holy Spirit. It starts with Jesus. I only hope that I myself overcome the struggles I have that I may share this amazing Man with you. And yes I know...you have heard it all from many nuts for many years. You are unimpresed and unmoved. In the following comments you likely will curse the "God whom I "market" but you dont ever give the issue a fair hearing."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: Who is Fr.Priest? And yes I know There is a lot of fake religion and sensationalism just as there has been for many years. My point that I want you to consider is that it is not all fake. It is indeed personally incredulous that some of this stuff is real. Starting with Jesus Christ. It's a personal incredulity thing. I can't fathom how a properly operating brain capable of functioning in this society could so abandon the obvious physics they use to exist in this universe and submit life decisions instead to old stories and what Fr. Priest used to say. How many rosaries can fit on the edge of a piece of texas toast burnt with the image of jesus."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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