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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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I’d suggest that religion is as often a barrier to growth as a sign of it. At least. Focussing on dogma and clinging to it no matter what is not the way.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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I'm not sure I can completely agree, but...
Found on my facebook by William Berkshire: Did you know that when Einstein gave lectures at the numerous US universities he was invited to, the recurring question that students asked him was:Do you believe in God? And he always answered: I believe in the God of Spinoza. The ones who hadn't read Spinoza didn't understand... I hope this gem of history, serves you as much as it does me: Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the three great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, along with Ren Descartes in France, and Gottfried Leibniz in Germany. Here's some of his wisdom: God would have said: Stop praying and punching yourself in the chest! What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to enjoy, sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you. Stop going to those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and say they are my house! My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you. Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing! Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe. Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book! Trust me and stop asking me. Would you tell me how to do my job? Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love. Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of God would do that? Forget any kind of commandments, any kind of laws; those are wiles to manipulate you, to control you, that only create guilt in you. Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that your consciousness is your guide. My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing that exists here and now, and it is all you need. I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues... no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record. You are absolutely free to create in your life heaven or hell. I could tell you if there's anything after this life, but I won't... but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is nothing after... as if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist. So, if there's nothing, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?... Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me... I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea. Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am? I'm bored being praised, I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy!... that's the way to praise me. Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me. The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, and that this world is full of wonders. What do you need more miracles for? Why so many explanations? Look for me outside... you won't find me. Find me inside... there I am beating within you. Spinoza. "I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter." - xongsmith, 5.7d
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Thanks xongsmith, I did not know such specifics of "Spinoza's God."
Sounds really good, actually.
Spinoza's wisdom writes: Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love. I am pure love. I really like that part.That's what I've always thought. If God is pure love... then Love is God. And we know Love exists, most of us experience (at least parts of) it every day.And if we know Love is there, and understand Love - there's no need for God, because they're the same thing. If they're not the same... if some part of God is not Love... then that part of God isn't worthy of following/understanding anyway. And, again, we come down to: understand, follow and fill your life with Love. No mention or understanding or following of God is necessary.For all things.
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FLRW Member (Idle past 497 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
Einstein talked about his belief in the God of Spinoza in 1929. In 1954 , a year before he died, he said, “The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.”
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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xongsmith writes: Found on my facebook by William Berkshire: I don't know who William Berkshire is, but I found that article at innumerable places on the web, all with horrible formatting that makes it difficult reading, but it says that when Einstein was lecturing at universities across the US he said he believed in the God of Spinoza, and then whoever wrote the article goes on to quote Spinoza at length. To me the lengthy Spinoza quote seems to capture a little of the spirit of what I recall of Spinoza's religious philosophy, but it seems doubtful that he wrote it, and I could find no evidence that he did. For examples, I don't believe Spinoza was ever translated as having written, "But I can give you a tip," or that he made copious and inappropriate use of ellipses. Here's that article with formatting so that it's easier to read:
quote: Here's some genuine Spinoza from Spinoza's Short Treatise on God, Man and Human Welfare:
quote: --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Could it be argued that Angels and Demons, if they can be proven to exist at all, are also not objects in nature?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: Could it be argued that Angels and Demons, if they can be proven to exist at all, are also not objects in nature? I only provided that short excerpt of Spinoza's writing to show that the supposed Spinoza quote in the Einstein story doesn't much resemble Spinoza's actual writing. I didn't mean to change the subject. It's a shame that the original author of those words appears to be lost. At one point he appears to be addressing a loved one ("My beloved"), so my guess is that it is from a letter. I think the original was not in English because I found what looks like an alternative translation at The Awakening of Humanity | Sinchi Runa. To address your question, I don't know Spinoza's position on angels and demons, but one thing I read suggested he likely rejected the possibility because he didn't think there was any such thing as disembodied minds. --Percy
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Raphael Member (Idle past 483 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Hola friends been awhile. Thought I'd pop in here and join the conversation.
Stile writes: If God is pure love... then Love is God. And we know Love exists, most of us experience (at least parts of) it every day.And if we know Love is there, and understand Love - there's no need for God, because they're the same thing. It sounds to me Stile like you believe in God a lot more than you think you do . What you're saying is really similar to the Apostle John in 1 John, where he writes,
1 John 4:7 writes: "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God." Sounds like the scriptures agree with you more than you realize
If they're not the same... if some part of God is not Love... then that part of God isn't worthy of following/understanding anyway. And, again, we come down to: understand, follow and fill your life with Love. No mention or understanding or following of God is necessary. This is interesting reasoning to me. I want to understand it better haha. If love has a being, why wouldn't I want to follow it/him/her/they? If a Divine Being exists, and it embodies love, why wouldn't we want more of it in our life? Your reasoning here seems to be throwing away one specific outcome because you have rejected it ahead of time, not because you don't find it compelling. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and if so I apologize! Much love friends (even you Ringo! lolol), Raph
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Except with your divine being we also get the lake of fire. With Stile's Almost-God we get nice with more nice.
I like Stile's Spinoza-inspired god a whole hell of a lot better than yours.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 483 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Yo Paul, been awhile since we went back and forth lol. Hope life is treating you well these days.
AZPaul3 writes: Except with your divine being we also get the lake of fire. With Stile's Almost-God we get nice with more nice. Seems like you're assuming a whole lot about "my" divine being . But, at the risk of taking the bait, "nice" isn't good enough. A "nice" God would be an impotent one. A God who has a priority of ending evil in the universe, and does so with fire would be much more worth believing in, imo. ...I wonder how you will respond to this Raph Edit: Spelling yikes! lol Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Hey, Ralph.
A God who has a priority of ending evil in the universe, and does so with fire would be much more worth believing in, imo. No, no, not any of the abrahamic gods. Those guys really love their fire. The problem I have is your good god who has a priority of ending evil is the one who created, spread and exacerbated evil to begin with. Unfortunately, image rehabilitation at this late date doesn't work. And the audacity of the bastards. First create evil, suffering, anguish and death, let them fester for millennia then claim to be The Warrior Against Evil. The cheek. But I tilt at windmills. Your gods aren't real, Ralph. I can't really complain about a ghost that is only in someone else's head. Wait, Yes I can. That's why I'm here. This is my avocation.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 483 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Appreciate the response and I think I understand better now!
AzPaul3 writes: No, no, not any of the abrahamic gods. Those guys really love their fire. The problem I have is your good god who has a priority of ending evil is the one who created, spread and exacerbated evil to begin with. Unfortunately, image rehabilitation at this late date doesn't work. In response, all love man, but your entire approach to this conversation is pretty intellectually arrogant. Haha. You’re doing a lot of assuming about my positions on things. What I gather from your words is you’ve narrowed in on - or perhaps you were taught and have since rejected - one specific hermeneutic and then used that hermeneutic to come to very specific conclusions that you have airtight ways to disprove. The issue is, there are a multiplicity of hermeneutics used to interpret scripture and I don’t really fit within the walls you’ve built for me. In fact, I’m more apt to agree with you and reject that kind of god too! You speak of “the Abrahamic religions” as if there is a single universally agreed upon systematic understanding in even one of those camps; that’s a pretty reductionist attitude imo. Real scholars take the time to understand the actual arguments of their contemporaries, so they can have an informed dialogue. So in light of the above, I am rejecting all your conclusions and question your interpretive work. I am outside the box you have created for me and don’t claim to believe any of the things you are assuming I do
But I tilt at windmills. Your gods aren't real, Ralph. I can't really complain about a ghost that is only in someone else's head. I mean, I hear and value your belief that my “gods” aren’t real. But it’s certainly not something any of us can demonstrably prove, right? Haha. (This is kind of bait-y but I’m gonna roll with it I think ) Raph!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
In response, all love man, but your entire approach to this conversation is pretty intellectually arrogant. It is indeed. And with justification. You all are selling a product. You want me to buy into it. What you see as arrogance I see as due diligence in questioning the product as well as the seller.
You’re doing a lot of assuming about my positions on things. Yes, I am. I assume you are religious meaning you believe in something that even you cannot show is really there. I assume this something is seen, by you, as creator of the universe, all that is, seen and unseen, as the mantra goes in this forum. I assume you agree and hold to the biblical Genesis account and that your goal here is to minister to us heathens in order to save our souls from the vengeance of your imagined gods. I assume your creed includes heaven and hell as reward/punishment for levels of devotion shown. I assume you believe Da Book. You’re a religionist, the intellectual enemy of reality and reason steeped in the majik and emotion of a realm that doesn’t even exist in this universe. Am I close?
The issue is, there are a multiplicity of hermeneutics used to interpret scripture and I don’t really fit within the walls you’ve built for me. There is only one box for you to fit in, Ralph. Believer. Religionist. The specifics of your belief system are not important. The box I put you in doesn’t care if you cross yourself from left-to-right or right-to-left or not at all. The reality or not of what you insist we should believe is the only issue here. Yah, I’m a hard reductionist, so, prove yourself. Show us your evidence. Caution, I’m also a scientist (retired). I know what constitutes evidence and what doesn’t so, please, present hard physical evidence not some wayward syllogisms with faulty logic.
Real scholars take the time to understand the actual arguments of their contemporaries, so they can have an informed dialogue. If there is something pertinent I am missing in my assumptions about your position then please correct me. I may seem arrogant but I’m also limiting the discussion to the bare essence. Where have I erred in my assessment that you believe in some kind of god and seek to convince others of its reality? What other positions need to be put forward to discuss that one questionable in your creed – belief? It is the most basic question of this discussion. This thing really is, for me, that simple. Show us your god. That’s all it takes.
I mean, I hear and value your belief that my “gods” aren’t real. But it’s certainly not something any of us can demonstrably prove, right? Then why do you pray to this thing? I suspect why. You’re not going to like it. It’s called acculturation. And the only reality involved in acquiring such a thing is being born and raised in a specific society. You didn't choose your religion, Ralph. Society did. So, yeh, you are all religions and all creeds. In this discussion, you personally, Ralph, are the collective embodiment of every shaman, apologist, preacher and priest throughout all of history. You got big shoes. Your god is non-existent. There is no reason to believe. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to defend against that. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Raphael writes:
Thanks for singling me out. I didn't know I was such a nemesis. Much love friends (even you Ringo! lolol)"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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