Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
9 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 530 (884990)
03-18-2021 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by dwise1
03-18-2021 12:41 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Wait. I'm confused. The "Isaiah" that I am talking about is the young man with the glasses in the video. Isaiah Saldivar. He is a delieverence minister from California. jar will despise him as he is a Biblical Christian, but he comes across as very honest to me. I had no comment on Moses or Hammurabi, but I wouldnt even lump them together.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2021 12:41 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 03-18-2021 1:13 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 234 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2021 2:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 530 (884991)
03-18-2021 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
03-18-2021 12:11 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Phat writes:
... I know for a fact that it is real.
(Meaning deliverance.) I have seen it happen in front of me time and time again. Even if a few people are dramatically exaggerating in front of crowds, the vast majority of deliverance is an actual physical and mental (and obviously spiritual) manifestation.
ringo, the Saskatchewan Skeptic writes:
No you don't.
With an attitude like that, I am surprised you even know that you yourself are real. I am sure there is a way to test such an event, though you likely would dismiss interviewing the participants for their reaction.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 03-18-2021 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 530 (884999)
03-18-2021 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by anglagard
03-18-2021 2:35 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
As a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America, I can tell anyone curious what it means to me. I didn't learn socialism from Karl Marx, I learned it primarily from Jesus Christ.
Perhaps that is what Phat is afraid of.
I can see Jesus as a socialist, though not anything like the socialist-leaning Democrats in America. Jesus suggested we share. They want it mandated.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2021 2:35 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Mercury, posted 03-18-2021 3:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 530 (885001)
03-18-2021 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
03-18-2021 12:08 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
It's called "society".
keep in mind that society is made up of a large number of believers. (By believers I specifically mean belief that Jesus Christ lives today and that there is a spiritual realm of angelic and demonic spirits).
Ligonier Ministries writes:
“The God hypothesis is no longer necessary to explain the origin of the universe or the development of human life.”
This assertion was at the very heart of the movement that took place in the eighteenth century that we call the Enlightenment or the Aufklärung. This movement spread from Germany to France and then to England. The French Encyclopedists (writers of an encyclopedia during the eighteenth century that promoted secular humanism) were militant in their denial of the need for the existence of God. His existence was seen as no longer necessary because He had been supplanted by the “science” of that period that explained the universe in terms of spontaneous generation. Here we see an example of pseudoscience supplanting sound philosophy and theology.
Added to this, we have the agnosticism of the titanic philosopher Immanuel Kant, who argued that it is impossible for science or philosophy to acquire knowledge of the metaphysical realm of God. It was declared that all knowledge must be restricted to the realm of the natural. With the combination of Kant’s agnosticism and the hypothesis of the Enlightenment, the door was open wide to a thoroughgoing philosophy of naturalism. This philosophy captured in its wake the academic theologians of Europe in the nineteenth century.
Out of this came nineteenth-century liberalism with its militant anti-supernatural perspective. The liberalism of that era denied all of the supernatural elements of the Christian faith, including the virgin birth of Jesus, His miracles, His atoning death, and His resurrection. The supernatural was stripped altogether from Christianity. Commenting on this in the twentieth century, the Swiss theologian Emil Brunner described nineteenth century liberalism as mere “unbelief in disguise.”
This battle has been going on longer than when Bush edged out Al Gore and the Conservatives usurped the Liberals who since have battled back and forth. (split largely down the middle.) Each side sees it as a battle for hearts and minds, though I see it first as a literal supernatural war of sorts. I believe that that realm is real.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 03-18-2021 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2021 10:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 530 (885002)
03-18-2021 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Mercury
03-18-2021 3:06 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
What is religion, if not mandated sharing?
Though I will admit that organized religion is just a giant infomercial with pledge drives at times, I have always believed that at its core, Christianity is enlightened through the living Spirit (The Comforter whom Jesus mentioned) that wakes people up and makes them want to share. You may well argue that no God is necessary in order for this "spirit" of empathy and altruistic generosity to sweep through the people, and i would cautiously agree to a point.
There is a clear difference in the character of the spirit among the people. I'm not talking religion. I'm talking relationship with that Spirit. (Then relationship with each other.) Liberals and Conservatives seem moved by different causes. I wont judge any one side as the "wrong spirit" because an argument can be made for either side.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Mercury, posted 03-18-2021 3:06 PM Mercury has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 530 (885020)
03-19-2021 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by ringo
03-19-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not doing it.
They were killed for lying. Not withholding. The God I worship would not kill somebody who honestly withheld. They might not get saved, but thats another matter between Him and them. You limit your understanding to the character in the book you read about. I've actually communed with Him. And you cant say one thing against that since you cant crawl inside my head.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 256 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 3:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 530 (885021)
03-19-2021 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
03-19-2021 12:32 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Cant disagree with you here except to say that there are nearly as many Christians in N.America as there are skeptics and other types of worshipers. You hardly have a majority edge here.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 253 by jar, posted 03-19-2021 1:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 530 (885024)
03-19-2021 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
03-19-2021 12:21 PM


Saskatchewan Skeptic
You are an obvious and willful skeptic. The difference between you and I is that you want to be a skeptic rather than a believer. You somehow must have concluded that being a "believer" is unimportant to God and to society. If He does exist, you likely are being honest on a daily basis which is why you say the things you say.Whether or not you actually believe that its possible that the character of god is around today, you don't place much value on betting on it. Your honesty is commendable and were I He, I would understand.
Now about me. I too am a skeptic though I am more uncomfortable with admitting it. He likely knows darn well that I doubt His power or else I would give everything away and trust Him fully, but I simply can't. And I've seen what I thought was the supernatural. You claim that I am mistaken but you don't know either. All you have is the evidence that we DO know...and it is not conclusive. Of course, I don't even have that. All I have is personal experience repeated time and time again.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 1:01 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 254 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2021 1:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 530 (885027)
03-19-2021 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
03-19-2021 12:52 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
But what you think is wrong.
How could you possible know. You claim not to be infallible but you are certainly cocky and arrogant. You cant say that a whole belief system is wrong unless you make a better case. And I don't think you have enough evidence. In fact, you show that you don't by lumping all religions in the same category. Newsflash: Many of them are WRONG. Now to be fair, I cant say anything more. I simply know and believe that there is a Right and Wrong and I claim to belong to the RIGHT group. Show me how we would even test all of the various religions to see if a clear winner exists?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by anglagard, posted 03-19-2021 3:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 258 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 4:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 03-20-2021 12:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 530 (885046)
03-20-2021 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
03-20-2021 8:45 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Asimov is an atheist, and the last source i would use. But of course jar, who im beginning to think is an atheist in disguise, knows everything.
The bottom line is that jar thinks the Biblical Christians are engaged in fantasy, as do you AZPaul3. You may be decent scholars in secular matters but you have no clue as to the reality of God (through Jesus). Nor does Asimov.
Sorry, but I wouldn't trust him any more than you do me.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 03-20-2021 8:45 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 12:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 530 (885047)
03-20-2021 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by dwise1
03-19-2021 4:23 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
dwise1 writes:
Not having a complete replacement for a totally fucked up belief system is no excuse for denying that that belief system is totally fucked up. That kind of fucked up logic that you're applying is ... wait for it, wait for it ... totally fucked up.
Look at how science and scientific theories work. You can't prove most theories, nor is that how the game is played. Rather, you disprove a theory with further research and data. When you disprove a theory you are not required to replace it totally, but rather that is incentive for other researchers to construct a replacement. Just as the further questions raised by every scientific answer provide clues for researchers to follow.
It is counter-intuitive to strongly attempt to disprove or falsify a conversion or a deliverance experience. Question? Yes by all means. Disprove? I wouldn't go there because the whole nature of a spiritual war is...well...a war between spirits.
The One Holy Spirit is the truth. He is the Spirit of Creativity. Love. Let me ask you this. If your wife said she loved you, would you immediately question it, doubt it, and test it? What if she knew you were doubting and testing and attempting to falsify her feelings? Your very doubt would get you in trouble. Same with God. I'm not saying to be a blind sheep and question nothing. I'm saying that being skeptical over a strong inner feeling and attempting to falsify it may lead you to the curb, unenlightened, all hope squashed, and still looking for something better than what you could of had. So go ahead, ringo. Stand at the altar forever.Insist that believers MUST be wrong since they did not employ your reasoning process.
Go ahead jar. Throw God away. Keep telling yourself that you are likely wrong.
Keep supporting atheists like Asimov. Keep doubting that you can test the Holy Spirit by acceting Him rather than doubting and being scared that you will become a Biblical Christian. Keep mocking them for their beliefs.
Go ahead Tangle. Reassure yourself that its all man-made and a myth. Bells and smells my arse. Part of your problem was that you were brought up a religious Catholic. Hats two strikes against you ever finding out that Jesus is real to begin with.
Go ahead,AZPaul3. Keep insisting that all religions are the same. Which is why Mr.Deity never understood God to begin with. He was Mormon, for crying out loud!
And finally, you David. I respect all that you say and write, even when you get a bit tipsy and cuss me out for lying or for feigning republican tendencies. The fact that you take time to explain your stories gives me respect for you.
dwise1 writes:
Everything that happens leaves behind it trace evidence.
Conversions and deliverance prayers leave behind dramatically changed lives and attitudes. Granted some of it is hyper-emotionalism. Granted some people just want attention. Personally, when I am prayed over, I have yet to emit a scream or a growl or manifest in any way. That's not my intent. I approach prayer very reverently and humbly.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 4:23 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 12:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 270 by Mercury, posted 03-20-2021 6:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 530 (885054)
03-20-2021 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by AZPaul3
03-20-2021 12:52 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
AZPaul3 writes:
The shared attribute of all religions is belief; an insistence, using emotion not evidence, that gods exist.
Mormon, Jew, Mennonite, Hindu, it doesn't matter. The emotional insistence, without actual physical evidence, that belief constitutes reality is the one major feature of all religions. Such insistence on belief is the enemy of reason, logic, reality. In this all religion is the same.
Why must insistence on belief be "the enemy"? Did it ever occur to you that "the enemy" itself does not want us to believe? Does it make any sense that Were there a Creator of all seen and unseen whose only interaction with humanity was an appearance at a point in time as a human?
I dont believe this stuff simply to fit in or because it was the dogma I was taught. Out of Christian professors, perhaps only 10-25% of them have even been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. You guys are free to accuse them of fantasy, denial of "evidence" and selective bias. My question to you is why is such a scenario outside of your realm of possibility?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 530 (885055)
03-20-2021 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by AZPaul3
03-20-2021 12:28 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
you have no clue as to the reality of God (through Jesus).
AZ writes:
That's just the thing. Yes we do. There is nothing there. And you can't show otherwise.
Why do I need to show otherwise? You have not successfully shown that there is nothing there.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 12:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 5:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 530 (885056)
03-20-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
03-20-2021 12:19 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
ringo writes:
Same way we know that the flat-earth idea is wrong or that creationism is wrong - by testing them.
For the record, I don't believe in Flat Earth. Its the silliest thing Ive ever heard. And I don't think that any of the pro creationism arguments are rational and so don't even bother worrying about that. But how can (or could) you test God? How can or could you test whether Jesus existed and why if so, He should be treated no differently than any other human? At best I see a gallery of skeptics. I do not see anything that stands out. I think you listen to the wrong people.
And why do you insist I claim infallibility? All that I claim is rationality within the context of my experience. And the fact that many people claim the same thing gives me a reasonable assurance that I am not crazy or delusional. Only you and your colleagues make that accusation.
We can recognize junk even if we don't have anything to replace it with. And of course, in the case of religion, we don't need to replace it at all.
Personally, I would be careful before so casually tossing God out with the eggshells. I would ask myself why I had no need for the product.
You can't know and believe. You only believe.
I'm not simply going to doubt my personal experience due to some idea that it "can't happen" or that rational science shows otherwise. First, a lot of people have had similar experience. Second, I know what I have experienced. You may argue that I don't even know that, so for now I wont challenge your hypothesis...i'm just asking why you are so set on it.
Finally, there are many scientists such as Dr.John Lennox who are also believers.
You need to ask yourself why you have such a zeal to attempt to falsify belief, and also why you think that there is only one proper way to think, reason, and conclude.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 03-20-2021 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 12:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 530 (885773)
04-26-2021 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by robertleva
04-26-2021 10:04 AM


robertleva writes:
You mention how important it is to constantly think about what you believe and even question it. As a scientifically minded atheist I ask you this one very important question:
Do you leave room for the possibility that you could be wrong?
That question can haunt me. At this point in time, I believe very strongly that GOD is real, Jesus and/or the holy Spirit is real and is presnt with me and I belive all of us. With us. Not IN us. Now, if somehow there was proof that what happened to me when I got saved was somehow a trick or delusional, it would give me pause to think and it would likely plunge me into a major depression. God is ALL I have that I can always relate with and rely on.
In addition, I feel I have witnessed just enough unexplained events that are more than coincidences that I can be confidant in my core belief. Many have not seen such stuff.
That being said, I also believe that much of the church has no more of a clue than the non-believers. Go figure. I will be back in a couple of hours I have to go run an errand.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 10:04 AM robertleva has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 2:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024