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Author | Topic: Anti-theist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Seems Mister Deity wants to keep his rebellious traits...which is the whole reason that freethinkers reject God even if He DID exist. They want to keep their personality flaws and all. Really? You really still believe that complete and utter BS lie your religion has poisoned your mind with? Despite having us here to explain it to you over and over and over and over again (as we have already done so many times). Break it down to basics. You believe things. Why do you believe those things? What is the most basic reason for believing something? For anybody to believe something. Think about it. The most basic reason for believing something is that you find it credible. You find it possible to believe it. Even if it is something that is completely and utterly false (eg, all of Q-Anon bat-shite crazy nonsense, Trump's claims (any of them, but currently the biggest porker is that he had actually won the election)), as long as you find it credible then you are able to believe it. [Grammatical Note: the "you" used in this paragraph was the generic you what does not refer to you, Phat, personally but rather to some unspecified generic person. See also the English "one" (as in "What would one do in such a situation?"), the French "on" (surprisingly very heavily used; my ears prick up every time I hear it being used in French content on Netflix), the German "man" (eg, "Man ist, was man ißt", "One is what one eats."). ] So then what happens when you (generic) cannot find something to be credible? Would one be able to believe in it? Only with difficulty, such that inordinate pressure would need to be exerted in order to convince you, ranging from peer or societal pressure (eg, old New Yorker cartoon in which one man at a cocktail party tells another, "Actually, my beliefs are the same as the Unitarians', except I'm not as brave as they are.") to the tools of the trade in the Inquisition (eg, thumbscrews, red-hot pokers). Take that one more step: what happens when you (generic) find something completely incredible such that it is impossible for you to believe it? Would you (personal; AKA "Phat") be able to believe something that is clearly and undeniably incredible? Why do you (personal, Phat) not believe in most of the gods that exist (eg, Wotan (AKA "Odin"), Thor, Zeus, Marduk, Bel and Anu (the Givers of the Law to Hammurabi), etc). At the most basic level, it is because you do not find them credible. Why do we atheists also not believe in them? Because we do not find them credible. Why do we also not believe in YHWH? For the same reason. One old atheist argument to YHWH-ists (though mainly the Christian ones, since they are the more belligerent type) is to inform them that they are also atheists since they do not believe in any of those other gods; we just believe in one less god than they do. Here is a testimonial from a local YEC activist who constantly and loudly proclaims that he used to be an atheist until he was "saved" by YEC. Let us evaluate his own testimonial from a tract that he told me he was very proud of (because of the formatting he could do because it was in an early Word format -- talk about how superficial these "true Christians" can be!): quote: No, that was not what had made him a fake atheist (in our email exchange, he insisted that every single night while he was an "atheist" he prayed to God and throughout the time he was an "atheist" he still believed in God, things that are completely inconsistent with actually being an actual atheist). And yet despite his having never actually being an actual atheist, but rather a self-serving fake atheist, he insists that he knows intimately what atheists think and believe and are motivated by. And he is completely and absolutely wrong. As are you. (OK, some atheists had fallen into the same legalistic trap that he had, but that does not speak for the rest of us) Evolution never convinced him to become an "atheist". Rather, it was his own religious training that had done it. As a hormone-laden teenager, he was aching to sin, but because of his religious indoctrination that made him feel guilty. What was he to do? But then there was that LoopHole that his indoctrination handed him on a silver platter. "If you are an atheist, then you can sin to your heart's delight. The only reason for you to be moral is because you are responsible to God. If you no longer believe in God, then you have nobody to be responsible to. You are free to sin all you want to. You could become a complete hedonist who runs down the street naked, raping all the women you could want to, while being a serial ax murderer killing everybody else with nothing to stop you." OK, rather extreme, but that is still what "true Christians" believe that atheists will "devolve" to. But if you were to ask atheists about that, they would affirm that if their Christian neighbors actually believed that if not for being a Christian then they would be a serial ax murderer, then by all means keep those Christian neighbors from ever losing their faith. When my ex-wife (at the time non-ex) took a class in Developmental Psychology as part of her Elementary Education degree, she insisted that I also take that class, which I did. And when our older son went to the same university, we insisted that he also take that class, which he did. When my first grandson was about to be born, my present to them was the book, Experimenting with Babies, which I had heard of on Big Bang Theory. Basically, developmental psychology involves "stages of development" in that certain kinds of cognition do not show up at first, but then do show up later as the child grows and develops. For the stages, use "Piaget" as a search word. One chapter in the book (which I lost in the divorce) dealt with moral development, which is admittedly less rigorously developed as other traits. The earliest stages of moral development is based solidly on a single authority, the parent, to decide what is right or wrong. In that case, the authority gives you the rules and your moral responsibility is to follow those rules and your responsibility (ie, to whom you are answerable for breaking those rules) is to that authority, which is initially your own parent. Then as you grow up, you find yourself challenged by more complex moral dilemma. Les Misérables in which a man becomes a life-long fugitive for having stolen a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. More modernly, I think it has been posed as a very dear family member needing life-saving medication that you cannot afford to buy so your only resort is to steal it. That is your moral dilemma between theft and saving a life. And that is the stuff of high drama. But when applied to standard religious training, it becomes far more damning. Why be good? I do not have access to the original text at the moment. A Baptist (or whatever) child has been given the religious education task of learning what the others believe (sorry, but sounds like a set-up to me). When the Baptist child asks why she should be good. The Unitarian minister responds, "Because it is the better way." So why be good? To help others.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I appreciate your sharing and your persspective. This isnt your first rodeo, I can tell.
So we are discussing what constitutes credulous versus incredulous observation. We need to keep human nature in mind and not simply jump to the conclusion that demons are popping up in society like Covid-19 mutations. Im keeping in mind also that many of the video captures of alleged demonic manifestations occur on the websites of deliverance ministries. Not too many independent sightings of such behavior. I reason that th demons, if they in fact have such ability or power, do not want to be publicized due to the consequences which would then occur regarding their presence. I also reason that most of the people are not consciously faking or exaggerating their prayer session, though they likely are expecting relief from their inner trials and tribulations when being prayed for. Its a bit like sick people expecting to get well when visiting old Oral Roberts back in the day. Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal. If I see it in person, I am much more likely to believe it after taking into account the behavior of not just the victim but of the others who see it with me. I know that I know that I heard voices in the air the one time that I witnessed something, and it was in my apartment too. Im only critical and skeptical due to others urging me to be so.The strongest evidence I will have is if it (a deliverance) happens to me and I experience dramatic change that is lasting in my life...such as I had when I got born again. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : added comment "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So you're not skeptical about your own infallibility. Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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I appreciate your sharing and your persspective. This isnt your first rodeo, I can tell. As our minister would tell us a few times, there was a church member who once complained to the minister/pastor/priest that he kept giving the same sermons over and over again. The response was, "That's because you still have not learned them!"
We need to keep human nature in mind and not simply jump to the conclusion that demons are popping up in society like Covid-19 mutations. Uh, demons is what you believe. We don't believe that stuff.
... the video captures of alleged demonic manifestations occur ... The power of suggestion, also of gullibility. Back in the 90's or so an insider to the Pat Robertson televangelism empire wrote a tell-all book about it, "Salvation for Sale". He described personally witnessing Pat Robertson performing a healing. A man was wheeled up in a wheelchair and when Pat Robertson laid his hands upon the man, the color returned to his pallid face and he presented much better, vastly improved. The author did a follow-up call a few days later and found that the man had died the next day after the "healing". It was the man's expectation at work, nothing supernatural that Pat Robertson had ever done. Funny side story. Back when Crown bookstores were still a going concern, I asked the clerk if they had "Salvation for Sale". Without missing a beat, he replied that they didn't, but there was a church a few blocks down the street.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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We are blessed today, brethren. One of my long time very good friends, the lead spirit for the four horsemen of the apocalypse, has consented to enlighten us today. And, yes, he is a very dear, close and honored friend since I got to see him speak, twice, from about the middle of the auditorium each time. I could see the twinkle in his eyes.
Some call him “intellect” some call him “asshole”. His greatness knows no bounds. If you do not know the name, Christopher Hitchens, then get thee to a nunnery and pray for your deliverance. Or not. This is long. If you’re already familiar with the arguments and have other entertainment elsewhere then the only reason to watch this is to see the intellect and the personality at work. Religion poisons everything.Why don’t we surrender to wishful thinking? Religion’s view of morals is insulting. Religion’s fear of freedom. Who wants to be a serf in a celestial North Korea? Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall. church v state The second half of the vid is Q&A. Interesting and enlightening, as expected. What would replace religion?Churchianity in America. Yah, that’s spelled right. Guantanamo Bay Nice ending.
Next week, another guest. One of my favorite philosophs. That is if there aren’t too many changes, and you know there are always changes. This universe appears in constant motion at all scales. Even the Hubble bubble itself, the visible universe we can see everywhere in all directions appears in motion. There is no static frame of reference because your very frame of reference is moving. Spin, spin, vroom, vroom. There is constant change. But, I’ll try to minimize it and get our guest lined up. Amen. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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I always liked Christopher. He was a wordsmith and often spoke in complete paragraphs rather than mere sentences. And even when faced with death, he never for a moment considered running over to the believers side.
So I bet you think I think he is in hell, right? Actually were I God, I would love to personally adopt Christopher and take a long walk with Him in the great beyond."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Some call him “intellect” some call him “asshole”.
Those are not necessarily contradictory. I appreciate Hitchens for his skills at rhetoric. But I never trusted his judgement. He came out on the wrong side of many issues. In particular, I disagreed with his views on the Iraq war.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: So I bet you think I think he is in hell, right? Actually were I God, I would love to personally adopt Christopher and take a long walk with Him in the great beyond But, according to your belief system, he is going to hell isn't he?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
According to basic christian doctrine Hitch has haunted hell for a decade now.
Wouldn't be surprised if he so pissed off the management up there that god fludded the world with covid to get back at him. But probably not.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The tangled One writes: Depends who you ask and also depends how literal you are an authoritarian regarding scripture. I will say this much. Hell, if hell exists is a place where free will that rejects God even after meeting Him will (must) reside. But, according to your belief system, he is going to hell isn't he?Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...since the universe(multiverse?) belongs to God and will where His loving judgement and edicts reign. God is giving all of us the timeframe and opportunity to choose. Christopher was very adamant that he would *never* accept such a God as the One of popular Christianity. Ironically, his less intelligent younger brother *did* accept God. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up... Really. And you know this how? The bible? Dante's Inferno? Your own perceptions? "Hell was never created for humans." How in lucifer's name could you possibly know that? Emotion? Catechism? Lack of critical thinking? Belief? But no actual facts. And let's take this one step further. Since hell is a figment of a collective superstition, it isn't real. It's fake. A subterfuge. It's what they tell dumb little humans when they want them to be intimidated and pliable. We in the sane end of the human gene pool know this. So what the hell are you going on about?Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You think you infallibly know about His infallibility. Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Depends who you ask Exactly.
I will say this much. Hell, if hell exists is a place where free will that rejects God even after meeting Him will (must) reside. Depends who you ask.
Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...since the universe(multiverse?) belongs to God and will where His loving judgement and edicts reign. Depends who you ask.
God is giving all of us the timeframe and opportunity to choose. Depends who you ask. Thing is Phat, you can make up anything at all about this god can't you? It just depends who you ask. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The excuses and explanations may all be relative but the truth is absolute.
I can ask a thousand people and it wont matter. They all wont be right."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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