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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 895 (885203)
03-28-2021 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by AZPaul3
03-28-2021 3:21 AM


Re: Myths and Legends
Scientist AZ writes:
It’s all within us
What is "it"? I know cupcake..you think that we created all the myths, gods, and cultural stories. Its ok. You just go on believing that humans are the only source. jar will argue that its the content that counts... and you anti theists will basically gleefully report that WE are the source...like any good little antichrist robots long to say. all I can say is WRONG.
I like Joseph Campbell by the way...he is a polished humanist.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 3:21 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 7:26 AM Phat has replied
 Message 233 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 10:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 895 (885206)
03-28-2021 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by ringo
03-22-2021 12:55 PM


Ifallibility Due To Impartation Of His Spirit
ringo writes:
You think you infallibly know about His infallibility.
True. I trust the belief that He chose me once I allowed for the possibility. I trusted that I had the right Spirit dialed in. I trust that a Creator of all seen and unseen,IF He desires a relationship, is waiting only for me to trust Him. To say that choosing this decision makes me infallible is stretching it a bit. I DO believe that I chose the right God. To think otherwise means that your expectation of fallibility within humans equates to doubt. Uncertainty. And a hasty retreat back to measurable evidence, which is a weak place to hang out.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 12:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:38 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 231 of 895 (885209)
03-28-2021 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
03-28-2021 7:26 AM


Re: Myths and Legends
But what is absolutely necessary is to explain why it is wrong...
All that I can explain is why I believe that it is wrong.
I believe:
  • That it is wrong to be a relativist. All religions have value only in a human-centrist paradigm. There is only One God. No more than One is needed. I say to stand for something. Choose this day whom you will serve.
  • I believe that humanity is making a big mistake if we move away from religious belief and trust only in our own vain imaginations, even if we profess to be science minded.
    As to why I believe these things, all I can say is that I am intuitive. Whether I am right or not remains to be seen.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 7:26 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 8:58 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 234 of 895 (885270)
    03-31-2021 5:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 232 by jar
    03-28-2021 8:58 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    From Vocabulary.com:
    quote:
    Relativism is the belief that there's no absolute truth, only the truths that a particular individual or culture happen to believe. If you believe in relativism, then you think different people can have different views about what's moral and immoral.
    Thats the definition that I thought it was.
    IF: GOD exists.
    And
    IF Jesus Christ is God...in the manner of representing His human character
    And
    IF: Through Jesus ALL things were created
    Then it follows that relativism is false.
    I happen to believe that the concept is false. That's about as far as I can argue.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 8:58 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 03-31-2021 5:25 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 236 by jar, posted 03-31-2021 7:02 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 239 of 895 (885283)
    04-01-2021 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
    04-01-2021 11:38 AM


    Descate vs Scripture
    ringo writes:
    Doubt is the foundation of all rational thought. You can't reason without reliable premises and reliability must be tested.
    Only if you choose to give more weight to Rene Descarte than you do to St.Paul or the authors of the Gospels.
    Viines Dictionary writes:
    DOUBT (BE IN, MAKE TO), DOUBTFUL, DOUBTING
    1. aporeo NT:639, always used in the middle voice, lit. means "to be without a way" (a, negative, poros, "a way, transit"), "to be without resources, embarrassed, in doubt, perplexity, at a loss," as was Herod regarding John the Baptist, Mark 6:20 (RV, following the most authentic mss., "was much perplexed"); as the disciples were, regarding the Lord's betrayal, John 13:22, "doubting"; and regarding the absence of His body from the tomb, Luke 24:4, "were perplexed"; as was Festus, about the nature of the accusations brought against Paul, Acts 25:20, KJV "doubted," RV, "being perplexed"; as Paul was, in his experiences of trial 2 Cor 4:8, "perplexed," and, as to the attitude of the believers of the churches in Galatia towards Judaistic errors, Gal 4:20, KJV, "I stand in doubt," RV, "I am perplexed." Perplexity is the main idea. See PERPLEX. Cf. the noun aporia, "distress," Luke 21:25.
    2. diaporeo NT:1280, dia, "asunder" (intensive), and No. 1, signifies "to be thoroughly perplexed," with a perplexity amounting to despair, Acts 2:12; 5:24 and 10:17, KJV, "were in doubt," "doubted," RV, "were (was) perplexed." See also Luke 9:7 (some mss. have it in Luke 24:4, where the most authentic have No. 1). See PERPLEX.
    3. diakrino NT:1252: see CONTEND and DIFFER, A, No. 2; in Acts 11:12, KJV, "nothing doubting," RV, "making no distinction"; in Jude 22, RV, "who are in doubt" (KJV, "making a difference," RV, marg., "while they dispute"); in James 1:6, KJV, "wavereth," RV, "doubteth." This verb suggests, not so much weakness of faith, as lack of it (contrast, Nos. 4 and 5).
    4. distazo NT:1365, "to stand in two ways" (dis, "double," stasis, "a standing"), implying "uncertainty which way to take," is used in Matt 14:31 and 28:17; said of believers whose faith is small. Cf. No 5. (Double Mindednesss)
    5. meteorizo NT:3349, from meteoros (Eng., "meteor"), signifying "in mid air, raised on high," was primarily used of putting a ship out to sea, or of "raising" fortifications, or of the "rising" of the wind. In the Sept., it is used, e. g., in Mic 4:1, of the "exaltation" of the Lord's house; in Ezek 10:16, of the "lifting" up of the wings of the cherubim; in Obad 4, of the "mounting" up of the eagle; in the NT metaphorically, of "being anxious," through a "distracted" state of mind, of "wavering" between hope and fear, Luke 12:29, "neither be ye of doubtful mind" (KJV, marg., "live not in careful suspense"), addressed to those who have little faith. (Note The interpretation "do not exalt yourselves" is not in keeping with the context.
    6. psuchen airo, lit., "to raise the breath, or to lift the soul," signifies "to hold in suspense," RV of John 10:24 (KJV, "make us to doubt"), suggestive of "an objective suspense due to lack of light" (Warfield), through a failure of their expectations, rather than, subjectively, through unbelief The meaning may thus be, "How long dost Thou raise our expectations without satisfying them?"
    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
    The clear meaning of the scriptures clashes with Descartes "Age of Reason" philosophies.
    Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy writes:
    Descartes opens the First Meditation asserting the need “to demolish everything completely and start again right from the foundations” (AT 7:17, CSM 2:12). The passage adds:
    Reason now leads me to think that I should hold back my assent from opinions which are not completely certain and indubitable just as carefully as I do from those which are patently false. So, for the purpose of rejecting all my opinions, it will be enough if I find in each of them at least some reason for doubt. (AT 7:18, CSM 2:12)
    In the architectural analogy, we can think of bulldozers as the ground clearing tools of demolition. For knowledge building, Descartes construes sceptical doubts as the ground clearing tools of epistemic demolition. Bulldozers undermine literal ground; doubt undermines epistemic ground. Using skeptical doubts, the meditator shows how to find “some reason for doubt” in all his preexisting claims to knowledge.
    The ultimate aim of the method is constructive. Unlike “the skeptics, who doubt only for the sake of doubting,” Descartes aims “to reach certainty – to cast aside the loose earth and sand so as to come upon rock or clay” (Discourse 3, AT 6:29, CSM 1:125). Bulldozers are typically used for destructive ends, as are sceptical doubts. Descartes’ methodical innovation is to employ demolition for constructive ends. Where a bulldozer’s force overpowers the ground, its effects are destructive. Where the ground’s firmness resists the bulldozer’s force, the bulldozer might be used constructively – using it to reveal the ground as firm. Descartes thus uses skeptical doubts to test the firmness of candidates put forward for the foundations of knowledge.
    According to at least one prominent critic, this employment of skeptical doubtis unnecessary and excessive. Writes Gassendi:
    There is just one point I am not clear about, namely why you did not make a simple and brief statement to the effect that you were regarding your previous knowledge as uncertain so that you could later single out what you found to be true. Why instead did you consider everything as false, which seems more like adopting a new prejudice than relinquishing an old one? This strategy made it necessary for you to convince yourself by imagining a deceiving God or some evil demon who tricks us, whereas it would surely have been sufficient to cite the darkness of the human mind or the weakness of our nature.
    In this case, I agree with Gassendi the critic of Descartes.
    Note that Vines says that The interpretation "do not exalt yourselves" is not in keeping with the context. Infallibility suggests arrogance. I would go more with certainty. Scripture clearly tells us that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Your way suggests that were a man to employ your "doubt" in his life, he would likely second guess his proposals even to marriage...such that the girl would likely dump you.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:38 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 244 of 895 (885305)
    04-04-2021 11:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 242 by AZPaul3
    04-04-2021 2:58 AM


    Re: Smart Folk Do Err
    How physical causality within the universe is not exclusive he doesn’t explain. And how he leaps from the supposition of these other causalities to a “something that intended it to be that way” is interesting. Wrong, but interesting.
    To hear that part you have to get to the end first. Don't skip ahead or you'll miss out on all the good cosmology stuff.
    I like his thought process...as far as I can understand it. I also like that he does not favor the multiverse theory. I have always maintained that even in an infinite array of potential multiverses, there would still only be One God. Just my belief...but I will say this, AZ.
    You have no basis to declare his "something" as WRONG. It is one of the five possible options. A ten year old budding anti-thesit can push it out of his mind, but he cant push it out of the realm of possibility. And God can make His home in the imaginations of smart folks as well as authoritarian simpletons.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by AZPaul3, posted 04-04-2021 2:58 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 246 of 895 (885315)
    04-05-2021 1:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 245 by AZPaul3
    04-04-2021 4:21 PM


    Its A Catholic Thing
    Guilt is a Catholic thing. Protestants feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people".

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by AZPaul3, posted 04-04-2021 4:21 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 7:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 250 of 895 (885396)
    04-11-2021 9:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 249 by AZPaul3
    04-11-2021 2:29 AM


    Re: Sundae Service Sermon
    AZ writes:
    Defending trivialities. Bible de-thumpers using trivialities to attack. Neither addresses the problems reality presents for the evil of the bible. Trivialities don’t matter. The overall theme, the evil of the Abrahamic tribal war god, the evil that subsumes every book in the tome, should be the subject, well beyond the trivialities of syntax and minor error.
    The conclusion your apologist arrives at is that the bible is god’s word because some of the book's boo-boo’s are, he declares, resolved. How blind. Resolve all the little dates and names you want. The problem of its evil remains.
    The evil does not come from the Bible. The evil comes from the people.
    Humans in trouble are likely, if the basis of belief is within them, to seek comfort from their misery in their acculturated religion.
    I agree. The Bible is a record of humans and their usage and misusage of their religion.
    One cliche which I recall as being apt is the fact that Jesus desires relationship and not religion.
    Regardless, he neglects to recognize that the same motivation to escape life’s hardships happens in every culture with every religion.
    True, but the mistake many people make is assuming that all gods are equally relevant or irrelevant. (In my belief)
    The political power of the European church made the cultural references to Jesus ubiquitous. If some temporal category change is the evidence then it is the Roman Catholic Church, 500 years into their reign, which influenced the calendar, not your Jesus.
    IF my Jesus was a cultural meme and a product of human thinking, you will win the argument and religion will eventually disappear. Tangle and you can celebrate in a pub somewhere. But if Jesus is who he says He is, you will encounter Him some day, either through judgement or through forgiveness. So will all of the other beliefs, all of the other religions, and all of the humans on this planet, regardless of what they believe. God is not simply a product of our imagination.
    The overall theme, the evil of the Abrahamic tribal war god, the evil that subsumes every book in the tome, should be the subject, well beyond the trivialities of syntax and minor error.
    Warring people do crazy and desperate things. The culture of that time was very territorial and warlike. We hope not to see it again, but if the global warming scenarios of global food scarcity come to fruition, you wont find people huddled at a big table seeking consensus among desperate people groups.
    Also, all the science says this course of events is not possible for a complex biological organism that is dead. Invoking majik is not historical. It’s charlatanism.
    Science is not a power unto itself. Science is only as alive and influential as the people who use it. I predict that some day when desperate people again turn to "myths" for comfort that science will try and make them stop doing that. (Rather, those holding the concept of science in their minds who also reject the idea of God. ) This alone will lead to further wars.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by AZPaul3, posted 04-11-2021 2:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 251 by AZPaul3, posted 04-11-2021 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 252 by Rahvin, posted 04-14-2021 12:03 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 253 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:50 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 254 of 895 (885469)
    04-14-2021 8:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by jar
    04-14-2021 6:50 AM


    Re: The Bill will get paid
    Phat writes:
    I predict that some day when desperate people again turn to "myths" for comfort that science will try and make them stop doing that.
    jar writes:
    Science cannot make anyone do anything and history shows (particularly Christian history) exactly what happens when the people abandon science and reason and turn to myths for comfort.
    When Christian Europe turned away from the enlightened science based Islamic Caliphate of what is now Spain darkness descended over Europe. Ignorance and poverty and suffering and Inquisition reigned.The bill always gets paid Phat.
    Now this I agree with. I don't predict the dire future of war and struggle based on what some apologist told me. I believe the scenarios which I describe based on several things. One of them is logic, reason, and reality.
    You and I disagree as to whether GOD as a source exists and, if so, is interacting in any way with humans. You seem to think that we as a collective human species will do far better by "throwing Him away" and taking responsibility for ourselves. What irritates me about your belief is that you have never had a relationship of any kind with SOURCE (The Living and Eternal Christ) and instead were taught and agree with, and teach that WE the people need to have a relationship with (science) and reality vs Fantasy.
    Abandon the scientific method and trust in belief and the bill WILL still get paid in deaths, poverty, sickness, famine, war ...
    Im not suggesting anything of the sort. I (and Raphael, apparantly) believe in the value of science and of the methodology employed. Speaking for myself, but imagining that Raph would agree, I do NOT plan on throwing God(SOURCE) away any time soon. I feel that it will be a mistake for all of you.
    Please note, however, that in my mind there is a vast difference between throwing GOD(Jesus) away and throwing MYTH (Religion) away.
    AZPaul started this topic because he is strongly against Theism and Belief, as if it is a threat to progress in general, humans in particular, and our future as a species. I can see his point and his heart as a human concerned with making the right decisions individually as well as sociologically. He knows darn well that global warming WILL BE the new Armageddon and a very real threat to our collective survival, not due to the planet dying but due to the people surviving the challenge.
    jar writes:
    Abandon the scientific method and trust in belief and the bill WILL still get paid in deaths, poverty, sickness, famine, war ...
    ... all the things that Biblical Christians hope for but without any intervention from any god to protect them.
    By that if you mean that we cant count on God to save our asses if we keep doing irrational things, I totally agree. I recently read (or am reading, rather) an interesting book which I shall share: The Market As God by Harvey Cox. I recommend looking it up and reading the intro.
    The basic point of the book is that we humans are modern day idolators. We trust in money and have in fact deified it. Thus one could say that people who trust in economics to save us from poverty and a higher bill, placing Money As SOURCE is another mistake that will haunt us while alive. I myself realize that all of the money in the world cannot buy my health or even my sanity....no matter which God I lay it in front of. God Himself can, however. Don't be too quick to ignore SOURCE. Also beware of efforts to form a global consensus. I worry about that. Perhaps I need to throw the DOGMA away.
    Continue to place SOURCE over content and you will simply get to pay the bill with suffering.
    NMP anymore.
    What I meant about desperate people turning to myths, I envisioned as a response to a growing global crises. I feel that many Biblical Christians simply do not trust a secular humanist, educated group of liberal politicians to preserve our familiar way of life. I feel they will place their values in a kinder gentler, all inclusive (and non-religious) global consensus. Where the science comes in is when they declare a social war against the beliefs which judge some of them as outliers(You need salvation! Kamala and Ocasio-Cortez are gaia witches...they value the survival of the planet over belief in Jesus) rather than what they claim to be, which is simply caring humans. The bill will indeed get paid, but we (meaning that I am speaking for the US Conservatives) will NOT pay it alone. WE will make China and Brazil, etc. pay their fair share. (Which in my mind is as big of a percentage as US conservatives are asked to pay.
    Again, why? Because China, as it enters and entered the industrial age, is generating far more pollution than the US EVER did. Back when we did it, we had 80-150 million entitled people. They now have close to a billion. Dont kid yourself that they shouldnt pay a large percentage of this hypothetical "bill" you mention.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:50 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 257 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 11:32 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 255 of 895 (885470)
    04-14-2021 9:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 249 by AZPaul3
    04-11-2021 2:29 AM


    Re: Sundae Service Sermon
    AZ, you do have some good points and I will respond more completely to this post later on. For now, though, lets deal with this.
    AZ writes:
    Even the most basic of moralities we as humans practice (empathy, compassion, etc.), born of the social mores learned from the evolution of our social species, are subjective. Subject to change from social pressures.
    And what authority, force, or motive drives these social pressures? Lets get to the bottom of who you think God would be, should He exist?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by AZPaul3, posted 04-11-2021 2:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 258 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 11:35 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 259 of 895 (885481)
    04-14-2021 1:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by jar
    04-14-2021 11:32 AM


    Re: The Bill will get paid
    You yourself said elsewhere that you see the US moving closer to fascism. IIRC, there was a giant bill presented to Germany in the 1920's that they couldnt or wouldnt pay. Facism followed. Now...all of you claim the US populist middle class/working class need pay this bill we have now.
    jar writes:
    How many times over the decades Phat have I pointed out that Evangelical Biblical Fundamentalist Christianity is the greatest threat existing in the world today?
    Well jar, you called it. The US won't get stuck with this bill any more than Germany got stuck with WWI. You see the handwriting on the wall.
    You may find this book interesting.
    The Coming Civil War

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 11:32 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 262 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 2:39 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 260 of 895 (885482)
    04-14-2021 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 258 by AZPaul3
    04-14-2021 11:35 AM


    Re: Sundae Service Sermon
    I didnt ask you to disprove "my God". If He in fact does exist, nothing you say will change it. What I wanted out of you was what drove(drives) the social pressures.
    And you nailed it.
    AZ writes:
    We don't do proof. We follow the evidence...The authority, force, motive that drives it is society.
    I just wantedto hear you say it. I called this already. The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE. Dont blame me. We wont avoid this war as long as we disagree.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 11:35 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 261 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2021 2:29 PM Phat has replied
     Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 4:41 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 265 of 895 (885491)
    04-14-2021 6:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 261 by anglagard
    04-14-2021 2:29 PM


    Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
    anglagard writes:
    I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Please explain this comment because as I read it, you are the sworn domestic enemy of every Veteran in the USA.
    First off, my definitions and your definitions are not the same. I'll blame myself for that one. I will say, however, that the US is becoming less nationalistic and more globalist. We compromise far too much in this area. Right Wing patriots see this. As for Left Wing patriots, I'm not sure how they see anything apart from individually rather than collectively. Which is a good trait for anyone. You have warned me about reading books and in being balanced in this regard. We don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. I mean, I claim to follow Jesus Christ but...as a qualifier...I don't simply follow some human sage who advocates giving the shirt off our backs to the needy of the globe. AZPaul does not realize that his insistence that the US pay the lions share of the coming bill will in fact lead to war. We have already sacrificed in terms of our losing a grip on working class wealth...for which we are no longer properly compensated for earning.
    I am reading books that you likely will say are partisan and a form of propaganda. I will say that the author of late, Tom Kawezynski, gets me to think and provides many arguments which I happen to intuitively agree with. The Left Wing activists never did it for me. I am far from communism and I am proud of that fact. I grew up with the cold war. My Dad used to explain why communism was evil. I believed him. I was never taught to give the shirt off my back to anyone, though I was encouraged to give away my spare shirts which I no longer used. It was the right thing to do. *reminisces about growing up*
    So the author has a newer book after his success writing The Coming Civil War.
    Kawezynski wrote a sequel. Here are some choice quotes:
    quote:
    Before we get more into outcomes,let's review the four basic axes of conflict. The first is ideological, which we could call conservative versus liberal, Republican versus Democrat, or Left versus Right.
  • The second is race: The decision by the Left to embrace identity politics because of the extreme electoral benefit has radicalized minorities against the rapidly diminishing White majority, with the predictable consequence in voting patterns hardening along racial lines and the attacks upon "White privilege" from the Left are accelerating at the same time White identitarians try to offer a rationale for self-defense to a still hesitant Right.
  • The third vector is rural folks versus urban populations, where the love of liberty still vital to living independently in the country runs counter to the cities desire to constrain their people with rules and regulations given the sheer weight of their ever-rising numbers.
  • Lastly we have the forces of tradition who seek to preserve a traditional way of American life, most often through Christian ethics, versus the forces of progress who want to remake all we do, and who use movements like LGBT to leverage identity in a way to attack traditional statements of morality. (...) Beneath their simmering ideology, the Left is really pushing hard to attack along racial lines specifically because they recognize the Right would almost rather commit suicide than commit to a collective defense on the basis of identity.
    In this way, an attack upon the core traditional value of merit over collectivism will be completely unopposed because enough Whites will allow false guilt to restrain them so that the country will be given away.
  • I will grant that the author comes across as racist...which I don't share, though I will admit that I agree with him that my generation was accused of "white privilege" as if we are supposed to hand out reparations like candy! I am most definitely against that!!
    quote:
    Allow me one moment to describe how each group would like to imagine themselves...The Right, as we will call them, believes in a merit based market friendly system which most Whites support as a universal value but which they want to treat as race-blind so long as they adhere to a set of cultural beliefs that honor the tradition of America and the idea of hard work and opportunity, which allows a relatively free life with many liberties.
    (...)The Left believes in government as a necessary actor to redress a society which is fundamentally unfair, whose very cultural values represent an imposition upon the changing demographic who demand free will to undo a system disadvantageous to them,and which will support victim groups who claim the old rules were deliberately designed to suppress the movement of power toward novel forms of identity, (which better find expression in the closeness of the city so the state can serve as corrective force: Socialism taken to different extremes depending upon the individual.
    Again, he author comes across as racist, but I feel that many whites now feel emasculated and disenfranchised. The same holds true of Christians. Look at how AZ Paul defines it:
    AZPaul3 writes:
    Christianity is one of the most destructive, blood-letting, murderous, death-cults ever unleashed on the world. We have the history. We have seen its fruits. Christianity is far from merciful. It is known evil.
    With fighting words like that, the war is unpreventable.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2021 2:29 PM anglagard has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 266 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:39 PM Phat has replied
     Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 7:08 PM Phat has replied
     Message 270 by nwr, posted 04-14-2021 7:42 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 275 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 12:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 267 of 895 (885493)
    04-14-2021 6:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 266 by jar
    04-14-2021 6:39 PM


    Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
    See what you have done? You have taken a whole group of people, likely 40% or more of all US Christians, and labeled them. Again I ask you why you have never been able to understand or receive a relationship (awareness, inner confirmation) from Jesus or the Holy Spirit. And all you do is hold fast to the evidence based critical thinking you were taught and ask me to tell you how it is even possible.
    It happened to me. I cant describe how or what. I can only say that I believe it(the communion) beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you prefer to label me as delusional and fantasy based, so be it. The Bill will get paid, alright. And lots of folks will suffer.,..likely yourself included. I don't wish it upon you, however. What I DO think is that you all are making a mistake counting on rational humans who, like you, see it all as a fantasy.
    Granted there is a lot of fantasy involved. And there is evidence...but not enough to throw God away.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:39 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 8:11 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 269 of 895 (885496)
    04-14-2021 7:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 268 by AZPaul3
    04-14-2021 7:08 PM


    Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
    I have read 500 page books on the History of Christianity. You must get your information from biased *cough*..leftist *cough* sources. You really need to quit listening to revisionist mythologists. Granted Christianity was often bloody, scandalous, and unchristian, but the founder, a Jewish Rabbi, was guiltless of any of your charges. And human nature is not limited to religion. Lets see what a mess the secular humanist scientists make of things as they attempt to balance the fairness on the planet, do away with religion, and optimistically plan for a brighter future they envision. We can then see who is evil. (though for them, it is largely unknowingly)
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 7:08 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by Rahvin, posted 04-14-2021 7:43 PM Phat has replied

      
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