Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 513 (885331)
04-05-2021 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
04-05-2021 3:18 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
ringo writes:
Nobody said anything about everybody on the planet. The instruction is to CHRISTIANS.
But that's not fair. Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?
ringo writes:
Because I don't believe Jesus will take care of me. Obviously, neither do you.
Jesus gave me the brains to keep my house for now. He likely knows darn well that a guy in a warm house...perhaps even a guy who doesn't believe in Him...is far better equipped to give out spare change to His children under the bridge. A sheep cannot pull a sheep out of a ditch if it too is in the ditch.
A guy under a bridge cant very well help anyone....

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 04-05-2021 3:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2021 5:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 49 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 04-05-2021 5:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 04-05-2021 6:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2021 6:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 513 (885332)
04-05-2021 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
04-05-2021 3:40 PM


Re: Random Acts Of Kindness.
jar writes:
You should smack your forehead because it really is that simple; no one should have to tell you to do those things; they are simply the right things to do.
You have mentioned a "charge" before.
Question: WHO gave us this charge? I await a statement of faith from a fellow believer.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 513 (885334)
04-05-2021 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
04-05-2021 3:59 PM


Re: Random Acts Of Kindness.
To say that Jesus charged Christians to behave in a given fashion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus lives or lived.
Which reduces Jesus to the same level as any other religious figure. Which is where you fall short. There may yet be hope for you if you keep doing what ________(insert religious character or charge here) said to do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 4:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 513 (885344)
04-06-2021 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
04-05-2021 6:51 PM


Re: Apologists are us
AZPaul3 writes:
Ever stop to consider that the “drop everything and follow me” directive, in every parable where it shows up, is spiritual? Maybe what your Jesus was at was he wanted others to discard their old concepts of gods, discard their old beliefs and their old morals and take on his instead?
The stories may actually say drop everything, walk away from your old life and its possessions (beliefs?), go beg a pair of sandals and a bowl, meet me out back and walk your life’s path with me … but, is that what he was actually asking for?
I suppose you have an argument, but very few people see Jesus as a far Eastern Yogi. We could argue that the mythos was Westernized through European thought and could probably come up with a counter- argument from Byzantium, but why on earth for? You always like to throw a match on my straw-men, don't you? .
I prefer Western Mysticism.
jar always rains on my parade as well by preaching CONTENT over SOURCE. I tend to favor Holy Communion with SOURCE leading to better CONTENT, and would get frustrated and disillusioned were it found that Jesus actually was a simple human holy man on a par with any other mystic wandering down the pike. For me, the power is in the unique exclusivity.
Thats also why I like Isaiah Saldivar and the casting out of demons. Though I am not so naive to imagine a demon behind every coffee cup, I like the idea of a spiritual war and tend to study literature that supports such a scenario rather than Eastern mysticism which emphasizes human effort/surrender over Divine Intervention. To be fair, however, you could be right. Em searching for a personal validation and confirmation of His power in my life rather than some human suffrage where I have to do all the work and suffer and have no promise of a touch from the Creator.
jar writes:
Unfortunately neither truth not reality really care or depend on what someone favors.
Granted, but I dont see any more truth and "reality" in yur argument than I do in mine. You yourself have admitted that none of us know until we die (if even then).
dwise1 writes:
Could this mean that Christ was Moses 2.0? That God also deliberately made following Christ just as hard to follow, if not more so? Why? Because God does have a Sense of Humor after all? Sick though it may be.
I like the idea of God having a sense of humor...especially if it becomes a teachable moment!
AnswersInGenitals writes:
In Luke (the oldest and most authoritative of the gospels) 14:33:
“…those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”
Only those that shivereth beneath the bridge shall gain the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus’ words, not mine)!
The irony burns! Here I am being taught by a bunch of atheists and secular humanists about my beliefs and my alleged lukewarmness. I DO like it better when you are attempting alternate explanations for Jesus charge upon my life rather than attempting to dismiss belief entirely.
Edited by Phat, : added quotes

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2021 6:51 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 04-06-2021 8:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 04-06-2021 11:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 513 (885346)
04-06-2021 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
04-06-2021 8:31 AM


Re: better content
jar writes:
so what are some examples of better content that is dependent on the source?
After editing my post, you will find I quoted many of my friendly critics, including yourself. AIG was particularly harsh yet instructive with his quote from Luke regarding Lacrosse.
You have brought these arguments up before and likely have a plethora of Bible characters in mind who respected the SOURCE yet were responsible for their own CONTENT and behavior in life. I'm encouraged to see more of us arguing against me and backing it with scripture, or in dwise1's case, personal experience.
Percy writes:
I've always thought this was the right forum to argue for other ways of knowing.
It looks as if you were right. Thanks.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 04-06-2021 8:31 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 513 (885347)
04-06-2021 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
04-06-2021 2:41 AM


Re: Frodo Lives
Percy writes:
Consistency should count for something, I guess.
Tangle writes:
Only if it can count at all. (17 years)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2021 2:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 513 (885348)
04-06-2021 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
04-05-2021 4:29 PM


Re: the topic
jar writes:
And consider the topic of this thread.
Belief vs the Scientific Method.
Why should anyone think Jesus is any different than any other religious figure?
Apart from some of us(*cough*Myself*cough*) needing a Creator of all seen and unseen versus the god of the month, I recall a particular scripture...
John 8:48-59 ESV writes:
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
You seem to think Christianity is about what we do.(CONTENT of character) and that SOURCE(Creator of all seen and unseen) is irrelevant. Or at least you favor that argument and vilify all of the apologists for some reason. Its OK, though. We don't need them.
jar writes:
When humans talk about or consider 'Jesus' they are simply using a symbol. It is as vague and internally inconsistent as 'apple'.
When humans use the the symbol Jesus it really has less absolute reality than the symbol 'Buddha' or 'Muhammad'. There is far more objective evidence that the two latter individuals actually did exist.
Language In Thought And Action really influenced your thinking. Its where you learned about words as symbols as well as the whole SOURCE vs CONTENT argument.
jar writes:
It's back towards some basics we've discussed many times.
Don't confuse the map for the territory. Don't confuse the symbol for the reality.
This exchange is critical to the topic.
On the belief side symbols are tossed out and accepted as the reality BUT, and it is a major but, none of the people on the belief side take the next step and ask 'When you use the symbol Jesus, what do you mean?"
When someone on the belief side says they are in communion with God no one raises their hand and asks "What do you mean?"
Belief equals everyone nodding their heads collectively.
The scientific method equals asking "Say what?"
Say what?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 04-06-2021 10:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 513 (885354)
04-07-2021 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Admin
04-05-2021 9:31 AM


Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
I get so frustrated trying to explain my arguments and in some way validate my belief to your loyal peanut gallery. To be honest, I'm not as worried about trying to convince myself. I know what I experienced and though not experiencing signs and wonders today, I honestly believe that this whole religion thing will resurface nationally as a major debate and issue amongst the people.
I feel at that point that thee will be public debate/discussion regarding some of the same issues that we go over and over and over here.
For the record, I never agreed with the Moral Majority or the politicizing of religion and belief that first occurred in 1979 through Jerry Falwell Sr.
I have never thought that religion should have such a prominent place in politics, though it does play a role at shaping public opinion on major issues such as Green New Deals, Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Supreme Court nominees.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Admin, posted 04-05-2021 9:31 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 513 (885355)
04-07-2021 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
04-06-2021 11:06 AM


Re: Apologists are us
Phat writes:
Guilt is a Catholic thing. Protestants feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people".
jar writes:
Once again Phat, you are simply showing your ignorance about Christianity.
Guilt is an HONESTY thing rather than a Catholic thing.
For one thing, I was semi-joking. AZPaul is semi-joking hoping to get a laugh from his peanut gallery and it would be the type of joke that I would freely share among the people at a church. You always show such an extreme disdain and "pity" for evangelicals that I should have known that you would react the way you did. Catholic "guilt" implies that a Catholic may worry that God was mad with them whereas a Charismatic would never think such a thing unless they were willfully sinning.(Hebrews 10:26).
jar writes:
It is only those Christian Cults that are totally divorced from reality that feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people".
Yeah I forgot that you berate us for having the audacity to think we are any more blessed or favored than a womanizing, drunken atheist who laughs at organized religion and our "sky daddy".
Not that you likely don't have a point. Really, though. Lighten up on the CCoI. It seems you carry a lifelong pity for them, little realizing that we ALL are lacking something. You yourself said that though a believer, you will most certainly be wrong about GOD.
The thing that I hate about your argument is when you push the insistence that all evidence points to religion and the Bible itself as being strictly a human creation. I don't believe that for a minute and I also will say I don't like this idea that im supposed to do what Jesus commanded even if He didnt exist and even if I got nothing out of it. What do you guys think I am? An Ascetic Monk?
ringo writes:
Taking up your cross daily and following Jesus is not about what YOU favor.
So I attempt a bit of levity and am essentially told to get busy and embrace suffering. What are you? Channeling Jesus?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 04-06-2021 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 04-07-2021 2:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 04-07-2021 3:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 72 by dwise1, posted 04-08-2021 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 513 (885360)
04-08-2021 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
04-07-2021 2:52 PM


Re: Apologists are us
jar writes:
Does it bother you that it codifies women as property?
I dont see it.
Show me where in the lyrics.
quote:
The church has one foundation,
’Tis Jesus Christ her Lord;
She is His new creation,
Through water by the word.
From heav’n He came and sought her
To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her,
And for her life He died.
Elect from every nation,
Yet one o’er all the earth,
Her charter of salvation—
One Lord, one faith, one birth.
One holy name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food;
And to one hope she presses,
With every grace endued.
Long with a scornful wonder
Men saw her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed.
Yet saints their watch were keeping
To hail a brighter day,
When God should stop their weeping,
Take their reproach away.
The evening sun is shining,
The cloudy day is past;
The time of their repining
Is at an end at last.
The voice of God is calling
To unity again;
Division walls are falling,
With all the creeds of men.
Back to the one foundation,
From sects and creeds made free,
Come saints of every nation
To blessed unity.
Once more the ancient glory
Shines as in days of old,
And tells the wondrous story—
One God, one faith, one fold.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 04-07-2021 2:52 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 8:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 513 (885362)
04-08-2021 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
04-08-2021 2:23 AM


Re: Apologists are us
There you go again, lumping *all* of the apologists into one corrupt barrel. I dont see it. And I trust (to a degree) much of what modern ones teach. I dont even know who you learn from.
Here is one who teaches soundly. I could tell within the first 5 minutes of listening that the guy knew what he was talking about.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 2:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 513 (885363)
04-08-2021 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 10:02 PM


One For AZ
I like this guy on YouTube. He defends the Bible very well. This is the second video I watched.
Also:
10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity | by Street Theologian | Medium
Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 10:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 04-08-2021 11:11 AM Phat has replied
 Message 71 by nwr, posted 04-08-2021 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 76 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2021 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 513 (885369)
04-08-2021 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
04-08-2021 11:11 AM


Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
nwr writes:
It's an exercise is carefully describing things in ways intended to fool the gullible.
OK upon further reflection, the guy that made the two videos is a bit biased and annoying, but he has some arguments. He quotes some scholarly atheists in order to support his arguments, but I am a bit skeptical that he constructed the arguments correctly. The question is if he is lying. You likely assume that to be so in every case of apologetic defense such as this one. Im not as biased against the accuracy of scripture and more important, the accuracy of events describe in those times. I will say this much. I always was unimpressed and dismissive of the arguments made by folks such as Dawkins, Dennett and Carrier. They had an axe to grind. Keep in mind also that I believethat there is a spiritual war going on. Assignments against the truth of the living Christ will always exist.
Regardng the arguments contained within thhe link, I find many convincing arguments...not so much in support of my apologetic wishes but based on logic and common sense.
ringo writes:
It's thinly-veiled creationism. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.
I dont see anything suggesting creationism...unless perhaps you are worried that any argument that supports the Christian God assumes creationism to begin with. I never give creationism a second thought. What I DO is I read the arguments and form my own beliefs and opinions or hone and revise the beliefs I already hold.
ringo writes:
And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.
OK lets think. We have three basic options here.
1) No Creator of all seen and unseen. (of any garden variety)
2) The Christian God exists. The stories are basically true, having been tweaked to filter out human error and bias from facts. (In this regard, the onus is in disproving the arguments in video#1)
3) GOD, A Force, A Ground of all Being, or an undefined spiritual reality exists. (Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason)
Lets introduce some links to some rabbit trails and take on each argument one by one.
1) Surely you don’t actually believe Jesus rose from the dead?
2) “You’re a Christian because of your dad” : Discussing Freud and the connection between belief and upbringing
quote:
We’ve all heard it before. You are a Christian because your parents were, hence, we should not take your faith seriously. It is simply something handed down to you. Or you’re a Christian because you live in a “white” country or you’re a Christian because you are weak and need a crutch.
----
3) 8 KEY WAYS ATHEISTS CONTRADICT THEMSELVES (granted they use the "eye complexity" argument in this one, but the argument is constructed well and has some thinking points. They discuss chance and the ridiculousness of the concept, as I tried to do.
quote:
Chance is a probability term reflected in the odds of a horse winning, the adjustments in a stock price based off an earnings downgrade or the price for a bet offered by a casino. It is not something which makes your breakfast, brushes your teeth or drives your car.
Gotta love it!
4) 10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity Good arguments in this link. I will expand them here.
quote:
Christianity far from being a crutch for the weak grew and continues to spread during times of intense persecution.
We’ve all heard it before- Christianity is just a religion for the weak. Something you cling to in order to make yourself feel better and live a naive life. Such a view is ignorant of the original roots of Christianity as well as the fact Christianity today grows fastest in the places where there is the most intense persecution.
NT Wright reminds us conspiracies are based off greed, power and lust and I can hardly see how being willing to die for a lie would help feed greed, power or lust..
More in the link.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 04-08-2021 11:11 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2021 2:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 04-08-2021 4:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 04-08-2021 5:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 513 (885397)
04-11-2021 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
04-08-2021 5:32 PM


Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
ringo writes:
I gave you two examples - the universe had a beginning and it's fine-tuned.
It may not be fine tuned, but it most definitely had a beginning. Science even supports that currently.
Neither of those arguments supports the Christian God. They could apply to any god.
There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically.
Then why can't you make the arguments in your own words?
It takes me a while to learn the arguments and counter-arguments well enough to articulate them in combination with my evolving beliefs in my own words. The reason I use other peoples arguments is because I agree with them or part of them until and unless I am challenged. And that dos not mean that I agree with the challenging arguments. One reason that I argue the same points over and over again is because either it takes me a while to lean and revise my own beliefs or because I never agree with the counter-arguments and continue to find new ways (words, phrases, concepts,beliefs) to express or revise my argument.
If you think any other god is excluded, you need to explain why.
As I said before, no other Gods exist.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 04-08-2021 5:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 9:55 AM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-11-2021 1:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 513 (885405)
04-11-2021 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
04-11-2021 1:00 PM


Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
An empty opinion is but a belief. We all have them, and some of us rely on them more than others. I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist. You are asking me to become either a science fiction writer or a contrarian skeptic such as yourself. Neither looks likely.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-11-2021 1:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by nwr, posted 04-11-2021 1:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 11:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024