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Author | Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Taking up your cross daily and following Jesus is not about what YOU favor. I tend to favor...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I get so frustrated trying to explain my arguments and in some way validate my belief to your loyal peanut gallery. To be honest, I'm not as worried about trying to convince myself. I know what I experienced and though not experiencing signs and wonders today, I honestly believe that this whole religion thing will resurface nationally as a major debate and issue amongst the people.
I feel at that point that thee will be public debate/discussion regarding some of the same issues that we go over and over and over here. For the record, I never agreed with the Moral Majority or the politicizing of religion and belief that first occurred in 1979 through Jerry Falwell Sr. I have never thought that religion should have such a prominent place in politics, though it does play a role at shaping public opinion on major issues such as Green New Deals, Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Supreme Court nominees."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: Guilt is a Catholic thing. Protestants feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people". jar writes: For one thing, I was semi-joking. AZPaul is semi-joking hoping to get a laugh from his peanut gallery and it would be the type of joke that I would freely share among the people at a church. You always show such an extreme disdain and "pity" for evangelicals that I should have known that you would react the way you did. Catholic "guilt" implies that a Catholic may worry that God was mad with them whereas a Charismatic would never think such a thing unless they were willfully sinning.(Hebrews 10:26).
Once again Phat, you are simply showing your ignorance about Christianity.Guilt is an HONESTY thing rather than a Catholic thing. jar writes: Yeah I forgot that you berate us for having the audacity to think we are any more blessed or favored than a womanizing, drunken atheist who laughs at organized religion and our "sky daddy". It is only those Christian Cults that are totally divorced from reality that feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people". Not that you likely don't have a point. Really, though. Lighten up on the CCoI. It seems you carry a lifelong pity for them, little realizing that we ALL are lacking something. You yourself said that though a believer, you will most certainly be wrong about GOD. The thing that I hate about your argument is when you push the insistence that all evidence points to religion and the Bible itself as being strictly a human creation. I don't believe that for a minute and I also will say I don't like this idea that im supposed to do what Jesus commanded even if He didnt exist and even if I got nothing out of it. What do you guys think I am? An Ascetic Monk?
ringo writes: So I attempt a bit of levity and am essentially told to get busy and embrace suffering. What are you? Channeling Jesus? Taking up your cross daily and following Jesus is not about what YOU favor."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Yeah I forgot that you berate us for having the audacity to think we are any more blessed or favored than a womanizing, drunken atheist who laughs at organized religion and our "sky daddy". What does the evidence show Phat? Is there ANY evidence that there is any fewer percentage of Biblical Christians that are womanizing drunkards than there are atheists who are womanizing drunkards? Have you even actually listed to the old Biblical Christian Hymn "The Church has one foundation"? Does it bother you that it codifies women as property?My Website: My Website
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What levity?
So I attempt a bit of levity... Phat writes:
I have never promised you anything but blood, sweat, toil and tears - as opposed to the aplogists who promise you a get-out-of-hell-free card and secret messages from Jesus with no effort required on your part. ... and am essentially told to get busy and embrace suffering. What are you? Channeling Jesus? Yes, life is hard, especially when you consider the hardships in the other guy's life."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Does it bother you that it codifies women as property? I dont see it. Show me where in the lyrics.
quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Correct, you don't see it. It's another example of Male Privilege and how people simply accept what the want rather than what is there.
Look again. It was a sign of the times when first written but the sad and pitiful part is that even today you don't see it. Edited by jar, : No reason given.My Website: My Website |
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
There you go again, lumping *all* of the apologists into one corrupt barrel. I dont see it. And I trust (to a degree) much of what modern ones teach. I dont even know who you learn from.
Here is one who teaches soundly. I could tell within the first 5 minutes of listening that the guy knew what he was talking about.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I like this guy on YouTube. He defends the Bible very well. This is the second video I watched.
Also:10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity | by Street Theologian | Medium Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Okay. Also:10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this. It's thinly-veiled creationism. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity. If you think you can defend any of that tripe, go ahead."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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He defends the Bible very well.
Oh, wow. It's an exercise is carefully describing things in ways intended to fool the gullible. And you fell for it.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Yeah I forgot that you berate us for having the audacity to think we are any more blessed or favored than a womanizing, drunken atheist who laughs at organized religion and our "sky daddy". Really? You are seriously going to push that old stupid shite? In the meantime, we are all sick and tired of Repuglians pulled that same old stupid shite of projecting their own sick perversions onto their opponents in the height of hypocrisy. Believers' lies about atheists' motivations are based on their own sick longings. Here is the literal testimonial of a local creationist (and one of the worst liars I have ever had to suffer, besides perhaps Trump (but that is a close call) ) of how he had become a fake atheist:
quote: Besides his first sin against English ("They took my sister and I ... " -- please please please study some German (or any other inflected language, though Russian can be a bit more difficult, ну? (Да, я говорю мало по русскиы, конечно) in order to learn the most basic things about case), he just told us in no uncertain terms that it was not evolution, but rather HIS OWN RELIGIOUS TRAINING that had turned him into a "atheist". He wanted to find a legalistic loophole to allow him to sin guilt-free and he found one that had been taught to him his entire life: if you don't believe in God then you are not responsible for your actions and you can freely sin in every which way you could possibly want. Furthermore in our email correspondence, he stated emphatically that he had continued to believe in God and had prayed to God every single night of his "atheism". All of that demonstrates decisively that he was just a fake atheist, though he insists that he was an actual atheist and so he knows exactly why atheists are atheists. Complete and utter BS lies. The truth of the matter is that atheists are more moral than "true Christians" are. Referring to developmental psychology, moral reasoning also goes through stages of development. To test where a child is in moral reasoning, we can use the Jean Valjean scenario from "Les Misérables" in which a man becomes a hunted convict for having stolen a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, though sometimes redressed as stealing an expensive medicine to save his dying wife's life. The earliest most primitive stage is "rules-based morality" in which some authority makes the rules and your job is simply to follow those rules. Basically the Nürnberg Defense ("Ich befolgte nur meine Befehle.", "I was only following orders."). Milgram's infamous psychology experiment in which "teachers" would electrocute "students" to death exposed this mode of morality: if an authority figure takes full responsibility for your actions, then you can commit the most unthinkable acts as directed to by that authority figure. Most adults, especially "true Christians", are stuck in rules-based morality. God tells me to kill gays and abortion doctors, so that is what I will do. I am not responsible for those killings, but rather God is. Yes, that is intentionally extreme, but that is their mind-set. But thus belief in God as your sole responsibility for being moral is actually a cop-out. If God tells you to do something immoral, then the bad consequences of your actions are not your fault, but rather God's, the One Authority who took full responsibility for your actions. You were only following your Befehle. Thus, "true Christian" teachings that atheists don't believe in God in order to escape responsibility for their actions is a complete reversal of reality: "true Christians" use God in order to escape from responsibility for their own heinous misdeeds, choosing to blame God for the great damage they cause. Rather, atheists do take personal responsibility for their own actions. We have no other choice! Nobody else to blame! And BTW. Women are not objects, but rather people in their own right. Objectifying them is far more a Christian thing than an atheist thing. Unless you happen to be yet another a theist pretending to be a fake atheist. So please do not blame atheists for your own moral shortcomings*. *FOOTNOTE: Back when streaking (running naked in public) was a thing in the early 70's, during the Oscars when David Niven was presenting some guy streaked across the stage. David Niven recovered with a remark that some people should refrain from airing their own short-comings in public.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Another take is that if life had never evolved on this planet, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
There's also a probability fallacy involved, though I don't remember its name. Basically, you are sitting in a poker game. What is the probability that you would have that exact hand that you are holding? Abysmally small. Therefore, you are not holding that exact hand. Wait, what? And that is exactly where that probability fallacy falls apart. Yes, we can calculate the probability of getting a particular hand and it is very small. But once you do have your hand, then it's a done deal, 100% probability! What are the odds of getting that particular hand? Doesn't matter, because I already have it! So what are the odds of the universe and life on earth being the way that it is? Doesn't matter, because it already happened! Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
nwr writes: OK upon further reflection, the guy that made the two videos is a bit biased and annoying, but he has some arguments. He quotes some scholarly atheists in order to support his arguments, but I am a bit skeptical that he constructed the arguments correctly. The question is if he is lying. You likely assume that to be so in every case of apologetic defense such as this one. Im not as biased against the accuracy of scripture and more important, the accuracy of events describe in those times. I will say this much. I always was unimpressed and dismissive of the arguments made by folks such as Dawkins, Dennett and Carrier. They had an axe to grind. Keep in mind also that I believethat there is a spiritual war going on. Assignments against the truth of the living Christ will always exist. It's an exercise is carefully describing things in ways intended to fool the gullible. Regardng the arguments contained within thhe link, I find many convincing arguments...not so much in support of my apologetic wishes but based on logic and common sense.
ringo writes: I dont see anything suggesting creationism...unless perhaps you are worried that any argument that supports the Christian God assumes creationism to begin with. I never give creationism a second thought. What I DO is I read the arguments and form my own beliefs and opinions or hone and revise the beliefs I already hold.
It's thinly-veiled creationism. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.ringo writes: OK lets think. We have three basic options here. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.1) No Creator of all seen and unseen. (of any garden variety) 2) The Christian God exists. The stories are basically true, having been tweaked to filter out human error and bias from facts. (In this regard, the onus is in disproving the arguments in video#1) 3) GOD, A Force, A Ground of all Being, or an undefined spiritual reality exists. (Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason) Lets introduce some links to some rabbit trails and take on each argument one by one. 1) Surely you don’t actually believe Jesus rose from the dead?2) “You’re a Christian because of your dad” : Discussing Freud and the connection between belief and upbringing quote:---- 3) 8 KEY WAYS ATHEISTS CONTRADICT THEMSELVES (granted they use the "eye complexity" argument in this one, but the argument is constructed well and has some thinking points. They discuss chance and the ridiculousness of the concept, as I tried to do. quote:Gotta love it! 4) 10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity Good arguments in this link. I will expand them here.
quote:More in the link. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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I have to say that those links are pretty awful. Standard apologetic trash. Including your favourite strawman.
If you want to discuss any of those pages in detail, I suggest you start another topic to do so. (Oh, and I don’t know why you keep going on about “spiritual warfare” - it seems to be just an excuse to reject the truth which really suggests you’re not on the side you think you are).
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