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Author | Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: But that's not fair. Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?
Nobody said anything about everybody on the planet. The instruction is to CHRISTIANS. ringo writes: Jesus gave me the brains to keep my house for now. He likely knows darn well that a guy in a warm house...perhaps even a guy who doesn't believe in Him...is far better equipped to give out spare change to His children under the bridge. A sheep cannot pull a sheep out of a ditch if it too is in the ditch. Because I don't believe Jesus will take care of me. Obviously, neither do you. A guy under a bridge cant very well help anyone...."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: You have mentioned a "charge" before. You should smack your forehead because it really is that simple; no one should have to tell you to do those things; they are simply the right things to do. Question: WHO gave us this charge? I await a statement of faith from a fellow believer. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
To say that Jesus charged Christians to behave in a given fashion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus lives or lived. Which reduces Jesus to the same level as any other religious figure. Which is where you fall short. There may yet be hope for you if you keep doing what ________(insert religious character or charge here) said to do."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: I suppose you have an argument, but very few people see Jesus as a far Eastern Yogi. We could argue that the mythos was Westernized through European thought and could probably come up with a counter- argument from Byzantium, but why on earth for? You always like to throw a match on my straw-men, don't you? . Ever stop to consider that the “drop everything and follow me” directive, in every parable where it shows up, is spiritual? Maybe what your Jesus was at was he wanted others to discard their old concepts of gods, discard their old beliefs and their old morals and take on his instead? The stories may actually say drop everything, walk away from your old life and its possessions (beliefs?), go beg a pair of sandals and a bowl, meet me out back and walk your life’s path with me … but, is that what he was actually asking for? I prefer Western Mysticism.
Thats also why I like Isaiah Saldivar and the casting out of demons. Though I am not so naive to imagine a demon behind every coffee cup, I like the idea of a spiritual war and tend to study literature that supports such a scenario rather than Eastern mysticism which emphasizes human effort/surrender over Divine Intervention. To be fair, however, you could be right. Em searching for a personal validation and confirmation of His power in my life rather than some human suffrage where I have to do all the work and suffer and have no promise of a touch from the Creator.
jar writes: Granted, but I dont see any more truth and "reality" in yur argument than I do in mine. You yourself have admitted that none of us know until we die (if even then).
Unfortunately neither truth not reality really care or depend on what someone favors. dwise1 writes: I like the idea of God having a sense of humor...especially if it becomes a teachable moment!
Could this mean that Christ was Moses 2.0? That God also deliberately made following Christ just as hard to follow, if not more so? Why? Because God does have a Sense of Humor after all? Sick though it may be. AnswersInGenitals writes: The irony burns! Here I am being taught by a bunch of atheists and secular humanists about my beliefs and my alleged lukewarmness. I DO like it better when you are attempting alternate explanations for Jesus charge upon my life rather than attempting to dismiss belief entirely. In Luke (the oldest and most authoritative of the gospels) 14:33: “…those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.” Only those that shivereth beneath the bridge shall gain the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus’ words, not mine)! Edited by Phat, : added quotes"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: After editing my post, you will find I quoted many of my friendly critics, including yourself. AIG was particularly harsh yet instructive with his quote from Luke regarding Lacrosse. so what are some examples of better content that is dependent on the source? You have brought these arguments up before and likely have a plethora of Bible characters in mind who respected the SOURCE yet were responsible for their own CONTENT and behavior in life. I'm encouraged to see more of us arguing against me and backing it with scripture, or in dwise1's case, personal experience.
Percy writes: It looks as if you were right. Thanks. I've always thought this was the right forum to argue for other ways of knowing."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: Consistency should count for something, I guess. Tangle writes:
Only if it can count at all. (17 years)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
Apart from some of us(*cough*Myself*cough*) needing a Creator of all seen and unseen versus the god of the month, I recall a particular scripture...
And consider the topic of this thread.
Belief vs the Scientific Method. Why should anyone think Jesus is any different than any other religious figure? John 8:48-59 ESV writes: You seem to think Christianity is about what we do.(CONTENT of character) and that SOURCE(Creator of all seen and unseen) is irrelevant. Or at least you favor that argument and vilify all of the apologists for some reason. Its OK, though. We don't need them. The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.jar writes: Language In Thought And Action really influenced your thinking. Its where you learned about words as symbols as well as the whole SOURCE vs CONTENT argument.
When humans talk about or consider 'Jesus' they are simply using a symbol. It is as vague and internally inconsistent as 'apple'. When humans use the the symbol Jesus it really has less absolute reality than the symbol 'Buddha' or 'Muhammad'. There is far more objective evidence that the two latter individuals actually did exist.jar writes: Say what? It's back towards some basics we've discussed many times. Don't confuse the map for the territory. Don't confuse the symbol for the reality. This exchange is critical to the topic. On the belief side symbols are tossed out and accepted as the reality BUT, and it is a major but, none of the people on the belief side take the next step and ask 'When you use the symbol Jesus, what do you mean?" When someone on the belief side says they are in communion with God no one raises their hand and asks "What do you mean?" Belief equals everyone nodding their heads collectively. The scientific method equals asking "Say what?""A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I get so frustrated trying to explain my arguments and in some way validate my belief to your loyal peanut gallery. To be honest, I'm not as worried about trying to convince myself. I know what I experienced and though not experiencing signs and wonders today, I honestly believe that this whole religion thing will resurface nationally as a major debate and issue amongst the people.
I feel at that point that thee will be public debate/discussion regarding some of the same issues that we go over and over and over here. For the record, I never agreed with the Moral Majority or the politicizing of religion and belief that first occurred in 1979 through Jerry Falwell Sr. I have never thought that religion should have such a prominent place in politics, though it does play a role at shaping public opinion on major issues such as Green New Deals, Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Supreme Court nominees."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes: Guilt is a Catholic thing. Protestants feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people". jar writes: For one thing, I was semi-joking. AZPaul is semi-joking hoping to get a laugh from his peanut gallery and it would be the type of joke that I would freely share among the people at a church. You always show such an extreme disdain and "pity" for evangelicals that I should have known that you would react the way you did. Catholic "guilt" implies that a Catholic may worry that God was mad with them whereas a Charismatic would never think such a thing unless they were willfully sinning.(Hebrews 10:26).
Once again Phat, you are simply showing your ignorance about Christianity.Guilt is an HONESTY thing rather than a Catholic thing. jar writes: Yeah I forgot that you berate us for having the audacity to think we are any more blessed or favored than a womanizing, drunken atheist who laughs at organized religion and our "sky daddy". It is only those Christian Cults that are totally divorced from reality that feel "Blessed", Highly Favored" and occasionally boast about being a "peculiar people". Not that you likely don't have a point. Really, though. Lighten up on the CCoI. It seems you carry a lifelong pity for them, little realizing that we ALL are lacking something. You yourself said that though a believer, you will most certainly be wrong about GOD. The thing that I hate about your argument is when you push the insistence that all evidence points to religion and the Bible itself as being strictly a human creation. I don't believe that for a minute and I also will say I don't like this idea that im supposed to do what Jesus commanded even if He didnt exist and even if I got nothing out of it. What do you guys think I am? An Ascetic Monk?
ringo writes: So I attempt a bit of levity and am essentially told to get busy and embrace suffering. What are you? Channeling Jesus? Taking up your cross daily and following Jesus is not about what YOU favor."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Does it bother you that it codifies women as property? I dont see it. Show me where in the lyrics.
quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There you go again, lumping *all* of the apologists into one corrupt barrel. I dont see it. And I trust (to a degree) much of what modern ones teach. I dont even know who you learn from.
Here is one who teaches soundly. I could tell within the first 5 minutes of listening that the guy knew what he was talking about.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I like this guy on YouTube. He defends the Bible very well. This is the second video I watched.
Also:10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity | by Street Theologian | Medium Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
nwr writes: OK upon further reflection, the guy that made the two videos is a bit biased and annoying, but he has some arguments. He quotes some scholarly atheists in order to support his arguments, but I am a bit skeptical that he constructed the arguments correctly. The question is if he is lying. You likely assume that to be so in every case of apologetic defense such as this one. Im not as biased against the accuracy of scripture and more important, the accuracy of events describe in those times. I will say this much. I always was unimpressed and dismissive of the arguments made by folks such as Dawkins, Dennett and Carrier. They had an axe to grind. Keep in mind also that I believethat there is a spiritual war going on. Assignments against the truth of the living Christ will always exist. It's an exercise is carefully describing things in ways intended to fool the gullible. Regardng the arguments contained within thhe link, I find many convincing arguments...not so much in support of my apologetic wishes but based on logic and common sense.
ringo writes: I dont see anything suggesting creationism...unless perhaps you are worried that any argument that supports the Christian God assumes creationism to begin with. I never give creationism a second thought. What I DO is I read the arguments and form my own beliefs and opinions or hone and revise the beliefs I already hold.
It's thinly-veiled creationism. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.ringo writes: OK lets think. We have three basic options here. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity.1) No Creator of all seen and unseen. (of any garden variety) 2) The Christian God exists. The stories are basically true, having been tweaked to filter out human error and bias from facts. (In this regard, the onus is in disproving the arguments in video#1) 3) GOD, A Force, A Ground of all Being, or an undefined spiritual reality exists. (Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason) Lets introduce some links to some rabbit trails and take on each argument one by one. 1) Surely you don’t actually believe Jesus rose from the dead?2) “You’re a Christian because of your dad” : Discussing Freud and the connection between belief and upbringing quote:---- 3) 8 KEY WAYS ATHEISTS CONTRADICT THEMSELVES (granted they use the "eye complexity" argument in this one, but the argument is constructed well and has some thinking points. They discuss chance and the ridiculousness of the concept, as I tried to do. quote:Gotta love it! 4) 10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity Good arguments in this link. I will expand them here.
quote:More in the link. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: It may not be fine tuned, but it most definitely had a beginning. Science even supports that currently.
I gave you two examples - the universe had a beginning and it's fine-tuned.Neither of those arguments supports the Christian God. They could apply to any god. There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically.
Then why can't you make the arguments in your own words? It takes me a while to learn the arguments and counter-arguments well enough to articulate them in combination with my evolving beliefs in my own words. The reason I use other peoples arguments is because I agree with them or part of them until and unless I am challenged. And that dos not mean that I agree with the challenging arguments. One reason that I argue the same points over and over again is because either it takes me a while to lean and revise my own beliefs or because I never agree with the counter-arguments and continue to find new ways (words, phrases, concepts,beliefs) to express or revise my argument.
If you think any other god is excluded, you need to explain why. As I said before, no other Gods exist. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
An empty opinion is but a belief. We all have them, and some of us rely on them more than others. I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist. You are asking me to become either a science fiction writer or a contrarian skeptic such as yourself. Neither looks likely.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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