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Author
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Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Message 76 of 513 (885371)
04-08-2021 4:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
04-08-2021 9:00 AM
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Re: One For AZ
Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this. I will, or rather, I have, but I'll wait till our next Sundae Service to post it. Thank you for providing this week's topic.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 9:00 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 77 of 513 (885373)
04-08-2021 4:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
04-08-2021 1:58 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
OK upon further reflection, the guy that made the two videos is a bit biased and annoying
I'm glad you recognize at least that.
The question is if he is lying.
I don't assume that he was lying. He could be mistaken but not actually lying. On such matters, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But he was presenting nonsense, and that's a socially irresponsible thing to do.
I always was unimpressed and dismissive of the arguments made by folks such as Dawkins, Dennett and Carrier.
I learned something from reading Dawkins: "The Extended Phenotype". But I have not read any of his atheist books, and I have no interested in reading them. I've watch a video or two by Richard Carrier. Yes, he comes across as having an axe to grind. I am not an admirer of Carrier. Dennett is different from the others. I often disagree with him. But he raises good questions. I think that makes him a pretty good philosopher.
Keep in mind also that I believethat there is a spiritual war going on.
In your mind, perhaps. But there really isn't any such war.
3) GOD, A Force, A Ground of all Being, or an undefined spiritual reality exists. (Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason)
Well of course, that is not the concept of the Christian God. This is what I so often see from apologists. They make an argument for a generic god (could be any of a thousand gods), and then just assert that it must be the Christian god. Perhaps they don't know any better, but it is a terrible way of arguing.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 1:58 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 78 of 513 (885374)
04-08-2021 5:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
04-08-2021 1:58 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
Phat writes: I dont see anything suggesting creationism...
Oh come on, I gave you two examples - the universe had a beginning and it's fine-tuned.
Phat writes: ...unless perhaps you are worried that any argument that supports the Christian God assumes creationism to begin with.
Neither of those arguments supports the Christian God. They could apply to any god.
Phat writes: What I DO is I read the arguments and form my own beliefs and opinions or hone and revise the beliefs I already hold.
Then why can't you make the arguments in your own words?
Phat writes: (Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason)
Because it has nothing to do with the Christian God specifically. If you think any other god is excluded, you need to explain why.
Christianity far from being a crutch for the weak grew and continues to spread during times of intense persecution.
PRATT.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 1:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 9:39 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 79 of 513 (885397)
04-11-2021 9:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
04-08-2021 5:32 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
ringo writes: I gave you two examples - the universe had a beginning and it's fine-tuned. It may not be fine tuned, but it most definitely had a beginning. Science even supports that currently.
Neither of those arguments supports the Christian God. They could apply to any god. There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically.
Then why can't you make the arguments in your own words? It takes me a while to learn the arguments and counter-arguments well enough to articulate them in combination with my evolving beliefs in my own words. The reason I use other peoples arguments is because I agree with them or part of them until and unless I am challenged. And that dos not mean that I agree with the challenging arguments. One reason that I argue the same points over and over again is because either it takes me a while to lean and revise my own beliefs or because I never agree with the counter-arguments and continue to find new ways (words, phrases, concepts,beliefs) to express or revise my argument.
If you think any other god is excluded, you need to explain why. As I said before, no other Gods exist. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by ringo, posted 04-08-2021 5:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 9:55 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-11-2021 1:00 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 80 of 513 (885398)
04-11-2021 9:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
04-11-2021 9:39 AM
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Reality Phat. Try Reality.
Phat writes: There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically. You have never provided any evidence or even any reasoned argument that supports either of those assertions and all of the evidence suggests both are very unlikely. In particular there is overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing as the Christian God. That evidence is the Bible and the existence of Club Christian. We've been down that road many many man many times Phat.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 9:39 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 1:18 PM | | jar has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 81 of 513 (885403)
04-11-2021 1:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
04-11-2021 9:39 AM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
Phat writes: It may not be fine tuned, but it most definitely had a beginning. Science even supports that currently.
Which has nothing to do with Christianity.
Phat writes: There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically.
There are thousamds of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others.
Phat writes: It takes me a while to learn the arguments and counter-arguments well enough to articulate them in combination with my evolving beliefs in my own words.
So learn them and present them in your own words.
Phat writes: As I said before, no other Gods exist.
I asked for an explanation, not an empty opinion.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 9:39 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 1:14 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 91 by Phat, posted 04-12-2021 1:08 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 82 of 513 (885405)
04-11-2021 1:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
04-11-2021 1:00 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
An empty opinion is but a belief. We all have them, and some of us rely on them more than others. I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist. You are asking me to become either a science fiction writer or a contrarian skeptic such as yourself. Neither looks likely. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-11-2021 1:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by nwr, posted 04-11-2021 1:21 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 96 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 11:59 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 83 of 513 (885406)
04-11-2021 1:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by jar
04-11-2021 9:55 AM
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Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
Though true that we have and continue down that well worn road, I am not simply going to throw in the towel pending evidence. And im not going to do what you did, and form my understanding of Christianity into a philosophy which sits on the fence and makes fun of the Biblical Christians while justifying why I myself am a "Christian" formed as a new model of my own making, either. What do you expect me to do? Throw either the PRATTS away or throw away God as I understand Her?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 9:55 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM | | Phat has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 84 of 513 (885407)
04-11-2021 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
04-11-2021 1:14 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist.
Something that I can agree with. But then why do you repeatedly try to defend such ideas? Why not just keep it to yourself?
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 1:14 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 1:31 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 04-11-2021 5:07 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 85 of 513 (885408)
04-11-2021 1:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by nwr
04-11-2021 1:21 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
Apologetics is an ongoing obsession with me. Some suggest that I try and defend the faith to bolster my own beliefs, but I think I would believe as strongly as ever had I no such arguments. What does happen is that I am able to hone my arguments more effectively through interaction with people who disagree with me. It still chaffs me somewhat that jar has a disdain for all apologists and I confess I wish I could present one that would change his mind. It appears increasingly unlikely, however...not because apologists have weak arguments so much as jar as high standards for his beliefs. When it comes to the supernatural (which is most definitely in my belief) there is and never can be any evidence nor reasoned argument supporting it. And I would never throw away my need for supernatural spirituality to be replaced by some mundane secular humanist belief system of a life of altruism and good works devoid of any perception or awareness of Gods interaction.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by nwr, posted 04-11-2021 1:21 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 86 of 513 (885409)
04-11-2021 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
04-11-2021 1:18 PM
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Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
Phat writes: Throw either the PRATTS away or throw away God as I understand Her? You should think. What does the symbol "PRATT" actually mean? Next what does the symbol "God as I understand Her" actually mean? What does the symbol "the Christian God" actually mean? Of those three things it's very likely that there can be a common understanding of what the symbol "PRATT" actually means and an understanding that can be supported by evidence and reasoned argument. But the latter two symbols are as meaningless as the symbol "apple". The latter two exist only in the imagination of the individual until additional descriptive information is supplied. Unfortunately all of the evidence shows that EVERY single God or god EVER described is only a creature of fantasy and human imagination. And so you once again make some silly assertion about some philosophy sitting on some fence which other than perhaps making you feel better has absolutely no meaning or relevance to the topic. Remember Phat, you created this topic. This is where you need to provide reasoned argument that support Belief versus The Scientific Method. The very post to which you were replying posed two questions regarding assertions you made; and once again you simply avoid addressing either question.
jar writes: Phat writes: There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically.
You have never provided any evidence or even any reasoned argument that supports either of those assertions and all of the evidence suggests both are very unlikely.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 1:18 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 87 of 513 (885411)
04-11-2021 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by jar
04-11-2021 1:38 PM
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Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
jar writes: You have never provided any evidence or even any reasoned argument that supports either of those assertions and all of the evidence suggests both are very unlikely. I cant understand how you can be a believer who is ok with the idea that the God you believe in is unlikely. This is what I mean when I said that you worked around that by redefining what it means to be a Christian.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 5:15 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Message 88 of 513 (885412)
04-11-2021 5:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by nwr
04-11-2021 1:21 PM
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Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
Why not just keep it to yourself? I would suspect because he's having fun, kinda like the rest of us. They've been at this, I read, some 17 years? Now that's a lot of fun. Congratulations on the anniversary, guys. And, thanx, nwr, for letting me springboard this off your post.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by nwr, posted 04-11-2021 1:21 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 89 of 513 (885413)
04-11-2021 5:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
04-11-2021 3:51 PM
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Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
Phat writes: cant understand how you can be a believer who is ok with the idea that the God you believe in is unlikely. This is what I mean when I said that you worked around that by redefining what it means to be a Christian. And so you simply continue to avoid addressing anything anyone says to you. And I did not redefine what it means to be a Christian since I am a registered member of a recognized Christian sect. Try reality Phat. What I have said is that there is no such thing as the "Christian God" and that EVERY God or god that has EVER been discussed is simply a creation of a human imagination. I am a Christian and believe that there actually is a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. That's not some "Christian God".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 04-11-2021 3:51 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 90 of 513 (885415)
04-12-2021 12:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 86 by jar
04-11-2021 1:38 PM
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Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
What does the symbol "PRATT" actually mean? Points refuted a thousand times. It is easier to do with Biblical Creationists than it is to do against believers. The supernatural, if it exists, cannot be tested and verified objectively. There is, however, many reports attributing verification of such events, even if subjectively and individually. And perhaps it was meant to be that way. Despite what every secularist assumes, not everybody will be convinced.
Next what does the symbol "God as I understand Her" actually mean? It means that the conception that I have of who and what God hould be and do is accepted beyond a reasonable doubt.
What does the symbol "the Christian God" actually mean? Jesus called Him Father. The Creator of all seen an unseen is assumed by believers(in Christ) to be the same God.
The latter two exist only in the imagination of the individual until additional descriptive information is supplied. Unfortunately all of the evidence shows that EVERY single God or god EVER described is only a creature of fantasy and human imagination How could the evidence prove otherwise?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 04-12-2021 6:49 AM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 95 by nwr, posted 04-12-2021 2:08 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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