Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 513 (885406)
04-11-2021 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
04-11-2021 9:55 AM


Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
Though true that we have and continue down that well worn road, I am not simply going to throw in the towel pending evidence. And im not going to do what you did, and form my understanding of Christianity into a philosophy which sits on the fence and makes fun of the Biblical Christians while justifying why I myself am a "Christian" formed as a new model of my own making, either. What do you expect me to do? Throw either the PRATTS away or throw away God as I understand Her?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 9:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 513 (885408)
04-11-2021 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by nwr
04-11-2021 1:21 PM


Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
Apologetics is an ongoing obsession with me. Some suggest that I try and defend the faith to bolster my own beliefs, but I think I would believe as strongly as ever had I no such arguments. What does happen is that I am able to hone my arguments more effectively through interaction with people who disagree with me. It still chaffs me somewhat that jar has a disdain for all apologists and I confess I wish I could present one that would change his mind. It appears increasingly unlikely, however...not because apologists have weak arguments so much as jar as high standards for his beliefs. When it comes to the supernatural (which is most definitely in my belief) there is and never can be any evidence nor reasoned argument supporting it.
And I would never throw away my need for supernatural spirituality to be replaced by some mundane secular humanist belief system of a life of altruism and good works devoid of any perception or awareness of Gods interaction.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nwr, posted 04-11-2021 1:21 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 513 (885411)
04-11-2021 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
04-11-2021 1:38 PM


Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
jar writes:
You have never provided any evidence or even any reasoned argument that supports either of those assertions and all of the evidence suggests both are very unlikely.
I cant understand how you can be a believer who is ok with the idea that the God you believe in is unlikely. This is what I mean when I said that you worked around that by redefining what it means to be a Christian.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 5:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 513 (885415)
04-12-2021 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
04-11-2021 1:38 PM


Re: Reality Phat. Try Reality.
What does the symbol "PRATT" actually mean?
Points refuted a thousand times. It is easier to do with Biblical Creationists than it is to do against believers. The supernatural, if it exists, cannot be tested and verified objectively. There is, however, many reports attributing verification of such events, even if subjectively and individually. And perhaps it was meant to be that way. Despite what every secularist assumes, not everybody will be convinced.
Next what does the symbol "God as I understand Her" actually mean?
It means that the conception that I have of who and what God hould be and do is accepted beyond a reasonable doubt.
What does the symbol "the Christian God" actually mean?
Jesus called Him Father. The Creator of all seen an unseen is assumed by believers(in Christ) to be the same God.
The latter two exist only in the imagination of the individual until additional descriptive information is supplied. Unfortunately all of the evidence shows that EVERY single God or god EVER described is only a creature of fantasy and human imagination
How could the evidence prove otherwise?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 04-11-2021 1:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 04-12-2021 6:49 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 95 by nwr, posted 04-12-2021 2:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 513 (885416)
04-12-2021 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
04-11-2021 1:00 PM


Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
ringo writes:
There are thousamds of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others.
There are only thousands of gods within human imaginations. And in case you ask, Yes! I happened to pick or be picked by the One exception. Perhaps it is an empty opinion, only because objective evidence is not yet possible.
And before you mock me for claiming to know the One God, ask yourself why any God is possible, pick one blindfolded, and then ask whether or not you choose to believe your pick is likely or unlikely.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-11-2021 1:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 513 (885650)
04-21-2021 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
04-16-2021 12:07 PM


Re: Though some are PRATTS, the worldview is defended
ringo writes:
Even IF there is a creator of all things seen and unseen, there is no way for anybody to know anything about him/her/it.
Did it ever occur to any of you that this mysterious "God" whom we speak of would allow us to know?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 04-21-2021 2:33 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 100 by jar, posted 04-21-2021 6:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 513 (885669)
04-22-2021 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
04-21-2021 6:04 PM


Re: Luke 4 yet again Phat
ringo writes:
Even IF there is a creator of all things seen and unseen, there is no way for anybody to know anything about him/her/it.
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to any of you that this mysterious "God" whom we speak of would allow us to know?
ringo writes:
Don't assume that nothing occurs to anybody but you.
So you have thought about it.
jar writes:
The Jews of Jesus day assumed that this mysterious "God" whom we speak of would (have)allowed them to know.
Jesus pointed out that they assumed too much.
I can see this line of thought.
jar writes:
You commit the same silly error; you assume the God you create actually talks jess(just) to those gathered in your synagogue.
First of all lets get one thing clear. The God I create exists even if I never existed. That, my friend, is not an empty belief nor simply a subjective opinion.
IF A Creator of all seen and unseen exists and IF Jesus represents His identity with humanity, then GOD exists. And no, I do not believe that only those in the synagogue are able to have Holy Communion. You yourself have said before that Matthew 25 supports the atheists and "other" religions as much as accepting Jesus, getting saved, and actualizing a daily homage to God. You and ringo cant simply use the silly argument of (insert God of choice here.
Subjectivity, though a factor, is not the default for GOD. It only is for us.
You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
At the risk of favoring anthropomorphism, I DO think that GOD loves us and favors no human more than another. I dont feel that we are on the same level as pond scum, however.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 04-21-2021 6:04 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 04-22-2021 11:20 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 105 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 513 (885671)
04-22-2021 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
04-16-2021 11:59 AM


Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:
An empty opinion is but a belief.
ringo writes:
And vice versa, a belief is but an empty opinion, like one's favorite flavor of ice cream.
I disagree. A belief is not simply a subjective opinion. You seem to think that without evidence beliefs become "empty."The type of evidence which you seek is objective. Right or wrong?
ringo writes:
But we shouldn't "rely" on them. (unevidenced beliefs)They're not reliable.
Why not? Are you scared that you will become one of jars carny sideshows?
Phat writes:
I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist.
ringo writes:
That's what I've been telling you for years.
Yes, but you continue to try and push the idea that an undefendable idea/belief is no closer to the truth than is a unicorn, a Big-foot, or a Spaghetti Monster. Dont you realize how silly you sound? Lets get back to our hypothetical (for the sake of argument) God. To start with, I will first move that this God should be known also as Jesus. Any objections?
If so....
Phat writes:
You are asking me to become either a science fiction writer or a contrarian skeptic such as yourself.
ringo writes:
Either would be preferable to an empty believer.
It is pretty clear why you stopped believing. You preferred honest unbelief over what you call empty belief. But you should not then lump every single believer (those who chose what you define as empty belief) as engaging in fantasy over reality. There is in my opinion quite a bit of evidence..(however subjective) that Jesus existed and was quite an influential figure in human history. Care to argue that one or can we move on?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 04-22-2021 11:46 AM Phat has replied
 Message 106 by jar, posted 04-22-2021 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 513 (885693)
04-22-2021 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
04-22-2021 7:11 PM


Analogies and Anthologies
I suppose I shouldn't get mad at you or expect anything less than humor. You don't believe in GOD in any form except perhaps science and human wisdom and our awe over what WE have created.
My analogy was always the Sun, the Light and the Heat.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 7:11 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 513 (885694)
04-22-2021 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
04-22-2021 11:46 AM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
ringo writes:
If I ask YOU whether you have thought about something, it's because you've said something that indicates you haven't thought about it. For example, I have to wonder if you have really thought about the difference between your God and other Gods because you can never give a valid example of the difference.
I'll try though you likely will reject my answer according to your framework of what the rules are. Think about it though. If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer. I submit that critically thinking materialists have no monopoly on societal rules nor need I accept their claim to default thinking.
Phat,earlier writes:
The God I create exists even if I never existed.
Let me elaborate. You guys claim that I and everybody else "create" their own Gods. Thus my response is tongue-in-cheek. God created me and everything and everyone else long before I and my species were even evolved enough to imagine/create Him. Jar always said that IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of whether anyone believes it, has experienced it or not. He also said that IF GOD did not exist, nothing we could create, argue or believe would bring GOD into existence. I have adopted the objective belief that GOD exists. I ignore the 2nd part of jars construct due to the fact that I dont create my own reality. I merely experience it.
ringo writes:
You can't just claim that Long John Silver really did have only one leg even if Robert Louis Stevenson never existed.
True...only because I never wrote Treasure Island. What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists and accept the mythicists and other secular sholars with an axe to grind against the Jesus. Methinks you never got zapped for whatever reason. You simply tried to fit in.
ringo, defending the idea of relativism and subjectivity for ALL Gods writes:
Of course we can, because you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god.
And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.
ringo,defending his point about "empty beliefs" writes:
They don't "become" empty. They start out empty and without evidence they stay empty.
If so, how is it that you once were a believer...if in fact you only ha empty beliefs to work with? Surely you are not gullible...
ringo writes:
ALL evidence is objective. When will you learn that? I've told you many times.
And you are wrong. If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs. Thus, you have no evidence.(nor do I) The mythicists are also wrong.(In my opinion...they too grasp t straws regarding verifiable evidence)
ringo writes:
But we shouldn't "rely" on them. (unevidenced beliefs)They're not reliable.
Phat writes:
Why not?
ringo writes:
Because they disagree with other unevidenced beliefs.
And as I have tried to convince you time and time agin, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal. If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians, you may have a valid argument. But we don't. Its like placebos and actual medicine.
Phat writes:
To start with, I will first move that this God should be known also as Jesus. Any objections?
ringo writes:
Of course I have objections. You might as well say that this God should be known also as Holden Caulfield. It's nonsensical.
Your argument favoring relativism falls flat for the same reasons. Jesus is not a minor bit player on the level of (insert alternative here). Argue it if you insist. Its a weak argument, however. I invoke the appeal to popularity, among other things.
And why would anybody prefer dishonesty?
Who is being dishonest? And why?
Phat writes:
There is in my opinion quite a bit of evidence...
ringo writes:
Very little evidence. And remember that you reject what the Bible says about Jesus.
That rabbit trail is as usual distracting this argument. What I do and do not do is of little importance, as is what you do and do not do. You use the fact that you are not a Christian to get off the hook. I use the excuse that no bunch of atheists is gonna define for me what I *should* do. I will be judged accordingly.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 04-22-2021 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 12:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 513 (885696)
04-22-2021 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dwise1
04-22-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
I remember this one! It brings back memories of an innocent time. And yet it is true in that Mr.Sun is quite crucial to our existence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:21 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 513 (885698)
04-22-2021 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by dwise1
04-22-2021 10:28 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
I agree to an extent and disagree in totality.
The Sun represents the SOURCE...93 million miles away.
The Light represents what the Nicene Creed says "and was made man."
For an omnipotent God to have a son does not challenge monotheism at all.
I submit that people simply didn't and don't understand. Allah had no son. Thus all three Abrahamic religions are not totally alike.
The Heat represents the Holy Spirit...the Spirit of Creativity...the spark that has kept this planet alive for a purpose not of human origin.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:28 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 513 (885700)
04-22-2021 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by dwise1
04-22-2021 11:11 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
Im not going to argue any of your points except to say that my intention was not to conflate Son and Sun. They just sound alike(and I was referring to the Trinity.) The rest of your points are noted and are valid.
My point is that even if Sun worship was intermingled with Christianity, The Jews were among the first people to have a God with no discernible image.
Deut 4:15 NIV writes:
You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Jesus never pointed towards Himself as the object of worship. He always pointed towards His Father. I suppose some choose to argue that Jesus was as human as you or I, but I maintain that He and He alone understood the Creator of all seen and unseen and saw GOD as His Father.
And on a related note, speaking of Dr.Frank Baxter and my 6th grade memories, I present another one of my favorites from that time!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added Hemo The Magnificent!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:11 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 513 (885710)
04-23-2021 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
04-23-2021 7:03 AM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
jar writes:
Look at your accounts of your experience Phat.
What parts are actual reporting and what parts are pure inference?
I'll bite. I feel like challenging myself this morning. My feelings for the Lord are strong, which gives me the courage to question my beliefs. Perhaps it is intangibles such as "feelings for the Lord" that led to so many inferences gleaned from other inferences which accompanied reports of reports in the monolith known as Biblical Christianity. I am reluctantly trying to approach these questions and self assertions from different angles. Perhaps I actually can learn to think...but only if it helps others more than the way that the apologists taught me to do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 04-23-2021 7:03 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 513 (885713)
04-23-2021 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
04-23-2021 12:23 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Finally we are getting somewhere!
OK here we go, Oh Saskatchewan Contrarian.
Phat writes:
If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer.
They're not "my" rules. They're THE rules - and YOU follow them in every instance but one.
And that One represents my stand. You cant simply expect me to critically evaluate the object of my faith/character of my belief as if He were just another Harry Potter character. I mean...I am reluctantly trying...but I am not in any way comfortable with non belief.
If everybody FOLLOWED the rules in every instance, nobody would be a believer - and that would be a good thing.
At last! You said what I have wanted you to say. So explain to me why it would be a good thing if we had a world where nobody believed in any Gods/Sources (which I think is impossible, by the way) and everyone was simply empathetic, humanistic, and followed a universal inclusive message that was love. self-sacrificial, and geared towards universal love. I mean, it sounds great! I need to ask myself why I resist it.
Phat writes:
What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists...
Again, for the same reasons YOU reject the research and arguments of the Santa-believers.
Nope. You cant lump my one stand...my one belief which I stand on...and throw it in a pile with Santa believers and flat earth believers and Harry Potter believers.
Phat writes:
And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.
And AGAIN you say nothing to actually back up your position. SHOW us the difference between your god and all the other gods.
Showing you the difference will likely involve a lifetime. The Spirit only moves in people. Perhaps you too have it(Holy Spirit) and don't realize that you do...yet you do good. I will say that if you had the spaghetti monster spiritor you followed the Stan Lee spirit of creative imagination we could only judge whether they were extensions of the Holy Spirit(of which there is but One) based on what you did with what you had.
ringo writes:
I recognized that the beliefs were empty, so I dropped them.
The beliefs are sound. It is the human dogma and inferences from generations of apologists that are empty. (see? You won that one. But we have yet to prove that all apologists are dishonest)
Phat writes:
If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs.
ringo writes:
Nonsense. People ignore the evidence or reject the evidence. That doesn't make the evidence subjective. It makes the people fools.
I will cautiously agree that many all believers are at worst fools and at best parrots. But I will also assert that some of us were more patient than you were and found substance in beliefs where you hastily found only emptiness.
Phat writes:
And as I have tried to convince you time and time again, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal.
Nope. All you ever do is repeat that opinion. You never make the slightest effort to back it up.
Play devils advocate a moment. Can it even be backed up? How can you make an argument defending one God over other Gods? Ravi Zacharias once wrote a book about it...but his credibility got shot to pieces, ironically...because he ended up following the wrong god and got busted and exposed for it.
Phat writes:
If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians...
Argument from popularity. Invalid. PRATT.
WRONG. You want to throw this one away, but it is a valid argument. You cant defend relativity among many Gods while ignoring the fact that only one of them has an army of followers, evidence of changed lives, and many homeless getting fed, much spare change flowing, and positive creativity in general.
My point is that *some* apologists and *some* Biblical Christians are very creative, empathetic, and useful. There are virtually no Big Foot believers doing anything. The assertion that Big Foot=Jesus is itself a PRATT.
Phat writes:
I invoke the appeal to popularity
This is a fallacy.
If it is a fallacy for Biblical Christians it is a fallacy for non-believers. You don't get to claim that you all live in reality while we all live in fantasy...at least not without a better argument.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 3:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024