Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 61 (9042 total)
67 online now:
Tangle (1 member, 66 visitors)
Newest Member: maria
Post Volume: Total: 885,972 Year: 3,618/14,102 Month: 238/321 Week: 54/44 Day: 5/9 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Anti-theist
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 256 of 465 (885475)
04-14-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
04-14-2021 8:53 AM


Re: The Bill will get paid
WE will make China and Brazil, etc. pay their fair share.

At the end of the 1940s China wasn't done with a devastating war. Europe, Russia, Japan were destitute and struggling.

We, The USofA, were the only society in full swing - the only industrial power in the world, Phat. And for the next 3 generations WE polluted with abandon and without regard for the warnings being raised. WE, Phat, are responsible for the pollution and greenhouse emissions that are raveging the Earth today.

The United States of America did this. And since then the rest of the world has been playing catch-up with the economic might of America and the modern economic ideal we have set for humanity. This struggle by the have-nots for economic equality is what is now adding to the killing of our future on this world, but, WE set the standard. We set the pace. And we haven't stopped yet.

The lion's share of that bill belongs to us.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 8:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 257 of 465 (885477)
04-14-2021 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
04-14-2021 8:53 AM


Re: The Bill will get paid
How many times over the decades Phat have I pointed out that Evangelical Biblical Fundamentalist Christianity is the greatest threat existing in the world today?

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 8:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:35 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 258 of 465 (885478)
04-14-2021 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
04-14-2021 9:31 AM


Re: Sundae Service Sermon
And what authority, force, or motive drives these social pressures? Lets get to the bottom of who you think God would be, should He exist?

Your god does not exist.

In all the facts of the human knowledge base there is NOTHING to justify the supposition that gods exist.

Does that *prove* anything pro or con? No. We don't do proof. We follow the evidence and nowhere in that evidence is there ANY reasoning to suppose a god.

What we do have copious amounts of evidence for is the FACT that your gods are strictly human fantasy.

As for morality? The authority, force, motive that drives it is society. Quite simple.

One of my favorite stories is about a young Syrian émigré in Germany who stopped by a spigot on the side of a building, dropped his pants in public and washed his ass. Shocking. Not allowed in this country. Animals. Society strongly disapproves.

In Syria, however, personal hygiene is prized above the juvenile giggles of seeing a man with his butt being washed. Society not only approves but encourages such actions.

Your god had nothing to do with either moral stance, just like with all morality.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 9:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 465 (885481)
04-14-2021 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
04-14-2021 11:32 AM


Re: The Bill will get paid
You yourself said elsewhere that you see the US moving closer to fascism. IIRC, there was a giant bill presented to Germany in the 1920's that they couldnt or wouldnt pay. Facism followed. Now...all of you claim the US populist middle class/working class need pay this bill we have now.
jar writes:

How many times over the decades Phat have I pointed out that Evangelical Biblical Fundamentalist Christianity is the greatest threat existing in the world today?

Well jar, you called it. The US won't get stuck with this bill any more than Germany got stuck with WWI. You see the handwriting on the wall.

You may find this book interesting.
The Coming Civil War


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 11:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 2:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 465 (885482)
04-14-2021 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by AZPaul3
04-14-2021 11:35 AM


Re: Sundae Service Sermon
I didnt ask you to disprove "my God". If He in fact does exist, nothing you say will change it. What I wanted out of you was what drove(drives) the social pressures.

And you nailed it.

AZ writes:

We don't do proof. We follow the evidence...The authority, force, motive that drives it is society.

I just wantedto hear you say it. I called this already. The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE. Dont blame me. We wont avoid this war as long as we disagree.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 11:35 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2021 2:29 PM Phat has responded
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 4:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(7)
Message 261 of 465 (885485)
04-14-2021 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
04-14-2021 1:41 PM


Phat, Explain Yourself
Phat writes:

The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE. Dont blame me.

I definitely blame you for what you just said.

secular humanist ideology = The Constitution of the United States of America
old school authoritarians = Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Traitors.

I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Please explain this comment because as I read it, you are the sworn domestic enemy of every Veteran in the USA.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 262 of 465 (885486)
04-14-2021 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
04-14-2021 1:35 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
Phat writes:

ou yourself said elsewhere that you see the US moving closer to fascism. IIRC, there was a giant bill presented to Germany in the 1920's that they couldnt or wouldnt pay. Facism followed. Now...all of you claim the US populist middle class/working class need pay this bill we have now.
jar writes:

Once again you are simply showing your utter lack of knowledge.

Stop listening to liars Phat and actually research what happened.

You simply continue to lie and misrepresent what others say.

And why would I be interested in another book by a **** and person totally disconnected from reality?

If it is accurate it is simply additional evidence that a vast percentage of US citizens choose *********.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 263 of 465 (885489)
04-14-2021 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
04-14-2021 1:41 PM


Re: Sundae Service Sermon
I didnt ask you to disprove "my God". If He in fact does exist, nothing you say will change it.

You asked...

quote:
Lets get to the bottom of who you think God would be, should He exist?

So I answered. It doesn't.

The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE.

Phat, that *war* has been ongoing for centuries now. And over the generations your side has been losing. That will continue into the future.

I have seen the tea leaves. It is so.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 264 of 465 (885490)
04-14-2021 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by AZPaul3
04-14-2021 4:41 PM


Re: Sundae Service Sermon
AZPaul3 writes:

Phat writes:

The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE.

Phat, that *war* has been ongoing for centuries now. And over the generations your side has been losing. That will continue into the future.

I have seen the tea leaves. It is so.

That's absolutely true but unfortunately incomplete. While the BELIEF in SOURCE folk will always lose in the long run they have far too often gained the upper-hand for a short while and those periods have ALWAYS been decades or centuries of suffering for the vast majority.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 4:41 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 465 (885491)
04-14-2021 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by anglagard
04-14-2021 2:29 PM


Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
anglagard writes:

I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Please explain this comment because as I read it, you are the sworn domestic enemy of every Veteran in the USA.

First off, my definitions and your definitions are not the same. I'll blame myself for that one. I will say, however, that the US is becoming less nationalistic and more globalist. We compromise far too much in this area. Right Wing patriots see this. As for Left Wing patriots, I'm not sure how they see anything apart from individually rather than collectively. Which is a good trait for anyone. You have warned me about reading books and in being balanced in this regard. We don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. I mean, I claim to follow Jesus Christ but...as a qualifier...I don't simply follow some human sage who advocates giving the shirt off our backs to the needy of the globe. AZPaul does not realize that his insistence that the US pay the lions share of the coming bill will in fact lead to war. We have already sacrificed in terms of our losing a grip on working class wealth...for which we are no longer properly compensated for earning.

I am reading books that you likely will say are partisan and a form of propaganda. I will say that the author of late, Tom Kawezynski, gets me to think and provides many arguments which I happen to intuitively agree with. The Left Wing activists never did it for me. I am far from communism and I am proud of that fact. I grew up with the cold war. My Dad used to explain why communism was evil. I believed him. I was never taught to give the shirt off my back to anyone, though I was encouraged to give away my spare shirts which I no longer used. It was the right thing to do. *reminisces about growing up*

So the author has a newer book after his success writing The Coming Civil War.

Kawezynski wrote a sequel. Here are some choice quotes:

quote:
Before we get more into outcomes,let's review the four basic axes of conflict. The first is ideological, which we could call conservative versus liberal, Republican versus Democrat, or Left versus Right.

  • The second is race: The decision by the Left to embrace identity politics because of the extreme electoral benefit has radicalized minorities against the rapidly diminishing White majority, with the predictable consequence in voting patterns hardening along racial lines and the attacks upon "White privilege" from the Left are accelerating at the same time White identitarians try to offer a rationale for self-defense to a still hesitant Right.

  • The third vector is rural folks versus urban populations, where the love of liberty still vital to living independently in the country runs counter to the cities desire to constrain their people with rules and regulations given the sheer weight of their ever-rising numbers.

  • Lastly we have the forces of tradition who seek to preserve a traditional way of American life, most often through Christian ethics, versus the forces of progress who want to remake all we do, and who use movements like LGBT to leverage identity in a way to attack traditional statements of morality. (...) Beneath their simmering ideology, the Left is really pushing hard to attack along racial lines specifically because they recognize the Right would almost rather commit suicide than commit to a collective defense on the basis of identity.
    In this way, an attack upon the core traditional value of merit over collectivism will be completely unopposed because enough Whites will allow false guilt to restrain them so that the country will be given away.
  • I will grant that the author comes across as racist...which I don't share, though I will admit that I agree with him that my generation was accused of "white privilege" as if we are supposed to hand out reparations like candy! I am most definitely against that!!
    quote:
    Allow me one moment to describe how each group would like to imagine themselves...The Right, as we will call them, believes in a merit based market friendly system which most Whites support as a universal value but which they want to treat as race-blind so long as they adhere to a set of cultural beliefs that honor the tradition of America and the idea of hard work and opportunity, which allows a relatively free life with many liberties.

    (...)The Left believes in government as a necessary actor to redress a society which is fundamentally unfair, whose very cultural values represent an imposition upon the changing demographic who demand free will to undo a system disadvantageous to them,and which will support victim groups who claim the old rules were deliberately designed to suppress the movement of power toward novel forms of identity, (which better find expression in the closeness of the city so the state can serve as corrective force: Socialism taken to different extremes depending upon the individual.


    Again, he author comes across as racist, but I feel that many whites now feel emasculated and disenfranchised. The same holds true of Christians. Look at how AZ Paul defines it:
    AZPaul3 writes:

    Christianity is one of the most destructive, blood-letting, murderous, death-cults ever unleashed on the world. We have the history. We have seen its fruits. Christianity is far from merciful. It is known evil.

    With fighting words like that, the war is unpreventable.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2021 2:29 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 266 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:39 PM Phat has responded
     Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 7:08 PM Phat has responded
     Message 270 by nwr, posted 04-14-2021 7:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 275 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 12:18 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33343
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 266 of 465 (885492)
    04-14-2021 6:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
    04-14-2021 6:23 PM


    What does the evidence show Phat?
    Phat writes:

    Again, he author comes across as racist, but I feel that many whites now feel emasculated and disenfranchised. The same holds true of Christians. Look at how AZ Paul defines it:

    AZPaul3 writes:

    Christianity is one of the most destructive, blood-letting, murderous, death-cults ever unleashed on the world. We have the history. We have seen its fruits. Christianity is far from merciful. It is known evil.

    With fighting words like that, the war is unpreventable.

    All of the evidence supports exactly what Paul posted. It is only through willful ********* and a total abdication of truth that what he posted can only be disputed.

    The issue is that Christianity, particularly Biblical Christianity has always been divorced from truth, reality and honesty.

    Biblical Christians simply lie to themselves by choice.


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 267 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:56 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15457
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 267 of 465 (885493)
    04-14-2021 6:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 266 by jar
    04-14-2021 6:39 PM


    Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
    See what you have done? You have taken a whole group of people, likely 40% or more of all US Christians, and labeled them. Again I ask you why you have never been able to understand or receive a relationship (awareness, inner confirmation) from Jesus or the Holy Spirit. And all you do is hold fast to the evidence based critical thinking you were taught and ask me to tell you how it is even possible.

    It happened to me. I cant describe how or what. I can only say that I believe it(the communion) beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you prefer to label me as delusional and fantasy based, so be it. The Bill will get paid, alright. And lots of folks will suffer.,..likely yourself included. I don't wish it upon you, however. What I DO think is that you all are making a mistake counting on rational humans who, like you, see it all as a fantasy.

    Granted there is a lot of fantasy involved. And there is evidence...but not enough to throw God away.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 6:39 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 8:11 PM Phat has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5838
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.5


    (1)
    Message 268 of 465 (885494)
    04-14-2021 7:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
    04-14-2021 6:23 PM


    Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
    AZPaul3 writes:

    Christianity is one of the most destructive, blood-letting, murderous, death-cults ever unleashed on the world. We have the history. We have seen its fruits. Christianity is far from merciful. It is known evil.

    With fighting words like that, the war is unpreventable.

    The truth shall set you free.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 269 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 7:11 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15457
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 269 of 465 (885496)
    04-14-2021 7:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 268 by AZPaul3
    04-14-2021 7:08 PM


    Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
    I have read 500 page books on the History of Christianity. You must get your information from biased *cough*..leftist *cough* sources. You really need to quit listening to revisionist mythologists. Granted Christianity was often bloody, scandalous, and unchristian, but the founder, a Jewish Rabbi, was guiltless of any of your charges. And human nature is not limited to religion. Lets see what a mess the secular humanist scientists make of things as they attempt to balance the fairness on the planet, do away with religion, and optimistically plan for a brighter future they envision. We can then see who is evil. (though for them, it is largely unknowingly)

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2021 7:08 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by Rahvin, posted 04-14-2021 7:43 PM Phat has responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5726
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 4.8


    (2)
    Message 270 of 465 (885498)
    04-14-2021 7:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
    04-14-2021 6:23 PM


    Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
    I will say, however, that the US is becoming less nationalistic and more globalist.

    Honestly, I don't see this. Most of what the US sends to other nations is done for a very American benefit.

    But yes, the Internet does exist and that tends to give people a somewhat more global outlook (unless they watch FOX).

    We don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. I mean, I claim to follow Jesus Christ but...as a qualifier...I don't simply follow some human sage who advocates giving the shirt off our backs to the needy of the globe.

    That seems to say that you do not follow Jesus at all. Instead you follow the counterfeit American Jesus.

    AZPaul does not realize that his insistence that the US pay the lions share of the coming bill will in fact lead to war.

    The US has been a major contributor to global warming. If we aren't willing to do something about this, then civilization is doomed.

    Here are some choice quotes

    That's pretty much right wing propaganda.

    I will admit that I agree with him that my generation was accused of "white privilege" as if we are supposed to hand out reparations like candy!

    I have never thought I was being accused of "white privilege". Yes, I am a beneficiary of white privilege, but that's a fact rather than an accusation.

    I don't know about being supposed to hand out reparations. How about we just extend the same privilege to all Americans, and not just whites.

    And honestly, Phat, you need a better bullshit detector.


    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021