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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 286 of 465 (885556)
04-17-2021 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by anglagard
04-17-2021 5:39 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Ok so how do we explain the deliverences? There is no way everyone is faking it. they actually believe something is happening to them. And they show outward manifestation of that. So how do you explain it? mass hypnosis?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by anglagard, posted 04-17-2021 5:39 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 287 of 465 (885557)
04-17-2021 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
04-17-2021 6:49 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
The easiest person in the world to **** is oneself.

You want deliverance and the snake oil salesman offers deliverance and you buy.

If their is enough alcohol and cocaine and the bottle is pleasantly shaped the result is deliverance. Or CocaCola.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 6:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 288 of 465 (885558)
04-18-2021 12:35 AM


Harvard Divinity Heathen
Happy Sundae. Welcome to another slap at religion just for the fun of it.

In this week’s service we have a guest sermon by a noted Biblical scholar.

This is a talk by Prof. Hector Avalos. Dr. Hector Avalos was (recently passed) professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of a bunch of books on Biblical studies and religion, including his own critical work, The End of Biblical Studies. He holds a PhD from Harvard Divinity and is a recognized Biblical scholar. He is also a heathen atheist. Quite rare, and with great respect, among his colleagues.

Hector Avalos - Wikipedia

Religion, by its very nature, fosters violence. Prof Avalos posits religion causes the same fight over scarce resources that is the centerpiece to almost all human violence.

No, he does not say all violence is religious. He’s a realist. Not all violence is religious but religion harbors the same propensity toward violence as any other motive, like greed, power +, since religion creates its own scarce resources that humans fight, war, and are willing to kill and be killed over.

Prof Avalos lists four prominent scarcities created by religion:

Scriptural access to god’s will
Sacred space
Group privilege
Salvation

Then he rips them apart. The video is just under an hour long.

Happy Sundae. And may the rest your week be as smooth and easy as whatever allowed you to waste some of your precious time with us today.

Edited by AZPaul3, : subtitle


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 465 (885572)
04-19-2021 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by nwr
04-17-2021 5:37 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
He (Isaiah) really does encounter and cast out demons.
ringo writes:

No he really doesn't. That's a good place to start figuring out how honest he really is.

How can you be so sure that demons (or unexplained multiple personalities of some as yet unexplained source) do not exist? I don't think you have any reasonable alternate explanations. You simply assume that anything that cannot be objectively evidenced is non-existant.
nwr writes:

Are you honest to yourself?

Deep question. I think I am. I dont lie simply to win an argument, if thats what you mean.
nwr writes:

Then he is conning you, and you are falling for it.

I ask you the same questions I asked ringo. How do you know? Absence (of objective evidence) does not equal evidence of absence.
anglagard writes:

Well, regardless of such motivations be they religious, biological, political, or philosophic, any source may lead to the same conclusion - namely "to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach." That is the true and highest calling of the most honest and definitive of humans.

OK, that sounds reasonable. God wouldnt want us spending our whole spiritual lives simply fighting off evil spirits if it got in the way of us feeding,
clothing, sheltering, protecting, comforting or teaching.
jar writes:

You want deliverance and the snake oil salesman offers deliverance and you buy.

I don't believe that *all* apologists are snake oil salesmen.
jar writes:

The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself.

. You assume that every single apologist on this planet is dishonest and seeks to fool me. I don't believe it.
Here is Isaiah talking about Ravi Zacharias and how the Body of Christ was fooled...nearly willingly.
Ravi Zacharias Scandal - My Thoughts

I trust this young man by and large but more than that I trust Christ in me.
If I end up getting fooled again, I might concede that jar was right about everything, but I honestly believe that the lot of you can learn a few things that you have never believed in.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by nwr, posted 04-17-2021 5:37 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 7:41 AM Phat has responded
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM Phat has responded
 Message 300 by AZPaul3, posted 04-19-2021 12:39 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 305 by nwr, posted 04-19-2021 3:04 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 290 of 465 (885573)
04-19-2021 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-19-2021 4:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

Absence (of objective evidence) does not equal evidence of absence.

You keep saying that but as has been pointed out to you many times, that is simply not true, correct, factual and has been refuted for you many many many many many times.

If a claim is made that the target was hit there must be a hole in the target. The absence of a hole in the target is positive evidence that the target was not hit.

The evidence is overwhelming that faith healing and casting out demons are nothing, absolutely nothing, except delusion.

No non-believer has EVER been inflicted by demons or cured of demons.

His carny spiel only works on those who first believe in demons and believe that he can cast out demons.

It is all in their fantasies.

Phat writes:

You assume that every single apologist on this planet is dishonest and seeks to **** me. I don't believe it.

I conclude that every single apologist on this planet is dishonest because so far every single one has misrepresented what is actually written.

It is irrelevant what you believe; the evidence is that you have never been able to present an example of an apologist who is not delusional or dishonest.

I have no problem believing they are not intentionally dishonest but simply bat-shit crazy.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 4:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:19 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19135
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 291 of 465 (885577)
04-19-2021 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-19-2021 4:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

How can you be so sure that demons (or unexplained multiple personalities of some as yet unexplained source) do not exist?


The same way you can be so sure that Santa doesn't exist.

The realquestion here is: How can YOU and Saldivar be so sure that they DO exist?

Phat writes:

I don't think you have any reasonable alternate explanations.


There are plenty of alternative explanations, one of the most obvious being out-and-out fraud. You KNOW there are fraudulent examples of "exorcism".

Phat writes:

You simply assume that anything that cannot be objectively evidenced is non-existant.


No I don't. I CONCLUDE that without objective evudence there's no justification for assuming that something does exist. You use the same methodology for Santa, leprechauns, etc.

Phat writes:

I don't believe that *all* apologists are snake oil salesmen.


And yet you haven't been able to show us one honest one.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 4:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:09 AM ringo has responded
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:13 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 465 (885579)
04-19-2021 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
04-19-2021 10:48 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
ringo writes:

The same way you can be so sure that Santa doesn't exist.

Nope. Not even close.

The real question here is: How can YOU and Saldivar be so sure that they DO exist?
First of all, let me make it clear that I am not involved in his Ministry personally except as a co-laborer in Christ and believer. Speaking as a co-laborer, however, the real issue is not that I need to be sure that demons exist. I am not going to invite *them* over for lunch. The REAL issue is whether or not Jesus Christ is alive today and the message that He has eternally told us we need to do.

It is irrelevant whether or not you believe that the supernatural is real. It is what it is...these conversations which you and I have. I have told you before that I sometimes feel as if I am wasting my time here in this internet forum, but I have been here for over ten years and I appreciate the online relationships.

So to answer your question---I cannot speak for Pastor Isaiah. You can listen to him for yourself and make your own judgements, opinions, and conclusions. Just as you do and have done with me.

ringo writes:

There are plenty of alternative explanations, one of the most obvious being out-and-out fraud. You KNOW there are fraudulent examples of "exorcism".

Yes, I know that fraud is widespread. Lets say for the point of argument that there is a supernatural realm and that there is one side of it trying to deceive and kill while the other side seeks to heal, educate, feed, and shelter. Its not too hard to choose your side now, is it? Or do you feel you have a choice?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 2:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 465 (885580)
04-19-2021 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
04-19-2021 10:48 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
I CONCLUDE that without objective evudence there's no justification for assuming that something does exist. You use the same methodology for Santa, leprechauns, etc.
You keep making this same error lumping the Creator of ALL seen and unseen ino the same group as Leprechauns, Bigfoot's and Santa Claus. Wake up and smell the coffee.

And yet you haven't been able to show us one honest one.(Apologist)

I myself hope to be that one.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 2:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 294 of 465 (885581)
04-19-2021 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
04-19-2021 7:41 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
jar writes:

You keep saying that but as has been pointed out to you many times, that is simply not true, correct, factual and has been refuted for you many many many many many times.

You cant objectively refute or disprove something that you cant even see, comprehend or measure.

Lets start slow. Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust what you believe and know about Him?

jar writes:

If a claim is made that the target was hit there must be a hole in the target. The absence of a hole in the target is positive evidence that the target was not hit.

OK lets go with your analogy. If there is a room of hurting and broken people, and your job is to feed, clothe, encourage, comfort and HEAL them, the evidence would be that the hole in their heart was healed or healing, correct? The error that you make is in lumping it all together as a con. You cant make such a blanket assertion when the evidence clearly shows that many targets were hit and many holes in the hearts and souls mended.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 7:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 12:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8173
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 295 of 465 (885582)
04-19-2021 11:43 AM


One of the strongest demonstrations of the power of suggestion and charismatic leaders was that video someone showed here about the guy that could knock people over without touching them. Anyone know where that video is?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 04-19-2021 12:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16880
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 296 of 465 (885583)
04-19-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Tangle
04-19-2021 11:43 AM


There’s a related phenomenon in martial arts. Some people claim to be able to knock their opponents around without touching them, and there are some impressive displays on video. There is also video of the brutal beatdown which occurred when one of these guys took on an MMA fighter who didn’t believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2021 11:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 12:14 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 297 of 465 (885584)
04-19-2021 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by PaulK
04-19-2021 12:08 PM


Unseen Battles
If we are talking spirit vs Spirit, the MMA fighter was obviously controlled by one, and it was not the Good One either!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 04-19-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by PaulK, posted 04-19-2021 1:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 298 of 465 (885585)
04-19-2021 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Phat
04-19-2021 11:19 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

You cant objectively refute or disprove something that you cant even see, comprehend or measure.

Of course I can.

You claim the guy is effecting things that exist in this universe. If that is true then there MUST be evidence. I even provided the reasoned argument to support my conclusion and as always, you fail to address it.

Phat writes:

Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust what you believe and know about Him?

And there you go off into utter nonsense land again. What does that even mean?

Phat writes:

If there is a room of hurting and broken people, and your job is to feed, clothe, encourage, comfort and HEAL them, the evidence would be that the hole in their heart was healed or healing, correct?

Sheesh. First there is no such thing as a "hole in there heart" that is not an actual hole in the heart. If there is an actual hole in their heart then there is direct physical evidence and know treatments. Now make a claim that he "comforted' them and you might have some validity. BUT that still is not any evidence of the existence of demons or that demons can be cast out.

You are just tossing out babble again and demonstrating that you have no idea what evidence is.

Phat writes:

You cant make such a blanket assertion when the evidence clearly shows that many targets were hit and many holes in the hearts and souls mended.

Word salad and ABSOLUTE no evidence of any demons. Learn the basics Phat.

Now explain why non-believers never get inflicted with demons and why your snake-oil salesman has never cast out a single demon in anyone who did not first believe there was such a thing as demons and that the snake-oil salesman could cast out the demons.

Show some evidence that it is not at best an example of self-delusion.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8173
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 299 of 465 (885586)
04-19-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Tangle
04-19-2021 11:43 AM


That's the one I think

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2021 11:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 300 of 465 (885587)
04-19-2021 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-19-2021 4:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
How can you be so sure that demons (or unexplained multiple personalities of some as yet unexplained source) do not exist?

You can't be sure there are no pink crows, either. Again with the prove-a-negative crap, Phat. Stop that.

I don't think you have any reasonable alternate explanations.

Why posit demons when we know, with certainty, that humans are apt to do human things? Everything you see as evil has to have a demon attached as an explanation when, in reality, there is nothing to evidence demon, only human.

But that’s not enough of a problem, so you and your brethren extend this bs reasoning to anything you personally feel is bad, disgusting or politically incorrect, like gays, trans, liberals, and vaccines. Demon inspired all. And because you actually believe this crap is real, you feel justified in committing your own evil in response.

You simply assume that anything that cannot be objectively evidenced is non-existant.

Correct. Without something, even an indirect physical something (ie, “that wouldn’t happen unless there was the thing” type evidence), there is no reason to consider or care. And it really doesn’t take a whole lot of indirect evidence to justify a look-see. You guys can’t even manage that. You present nothing but your own internal emotions and fears.

There is your demon, Phat. The normal human mind, including yours.

How do you know? Absence (of objective evidence) does not equal evidence of absence.

Yes, thank you, Carl. Silly people still abuse your quote.

That works for aliens because there is copious amounts of indirect scientific evidence that such could be a real probability. Your demons, not so much. In fact, not ANY much. You give nothing but personal emotion and fears. That is not evidence. That is pleading.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 4:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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