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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 617 of 670 (885421)
04-12-2021 9:27 AM


They've Done It Again
I haven't commented here on most of the police murders from George Floyd onward because it's all so much same-old same-old: entitled and legally nearly invulnerable policemen use lethal force against someone alleged to have committed some minor infraction. Last night it was Duane Wright, a black man shot and killed after a traffic stop in Minneapolis. He did have a warrant out on him.
Why police do this? Who knows? After the killing protesters gathered, there was looting, and the national guard was called out.
Wouldn't it have been more in the interest of safety for all concerned had they just let Mr. Wright go on his way, especially since he seemed determined to leave and given that they had his name, vehicle license number, and all the associated information of a registered vehicle. I wonder what the warrant was for? I'm guessing something heinous like possession of more than an ounce of marijuana, drinking in public, or jaywalking.
Most police don't need guns, and obviously many do not have the proper temperament or training to have them.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2021 11:49 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 619 of 670 (885425)
04-12-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by kjsimons
04-12-2021 11:49 AM


Re: They've Done It Again
That makes sense. Nothing like feeling they're in danger to make police shoot first and ask questions later.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2021 11:49 AM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Percy, posted 04-12-2021 3:38 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 620 of 670 (885439)
04-12-2021 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Percy
04-12-2021 12:18 PM


Re: They've Done It Again
Here's an interesting wrinkle: Officer who shot Daunte Wright meant to use Taser but fired gun, chief says
This officer's training was so good, his poise in anxious situations so profound, that when he reached for his Taser he instead pulled his gun. Despite a Taser's shape, feel, weight, trigger and just about everything else being very different from a gun, he continued to think his gun was his Taser as he aimed it at Daunte Wright and pulled the trigger.
That's absurd, of course, and of course he's lying. He acted on impulse and anger in a bad moment, just like all human beings have bad moments. What caused the bad outcome here was that a gun was present.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Percy, posted 04-12-2021 12:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 622 of 670 (885468)
04-14-2021 8:47 AM


And yet again!
Maryland state trooper fatally shoots 16-year-old after responding to reports of an armed man - ABC News, reports ABC News. The gun was an airsoft. According to the article, a Maryland state trooper responded to two reports of a suspicious man with a gun. The "man," 16-year-old Peyton Ham, took a shooting stance pointing his gun at the trooper. The trooper then shot him, wounding him. Ham then pulled a knife and tried to get up, at which time the trooper fired again, likely killing him, though he wasn't pronounced dead until he reached the hospital.
Perhaps the story is true, but it sounds incredible. A 16-year-old pointing his toy gun at a state trooper? A 16-year-old, just shot and wounded, pulling a knife and attempting to get up? That's pretty crazy and very determined behavior.
The information about the shooting is from a witness. I wonder if it was one of the people who reported the suspicious man with a gun.
Nothing makes a firearm death more likely than inserting someone with a gun into the situation. Insufficient training is also a possible factor, since the trooper, after receiving a report of a gun, may have exposed himself to possible gunfire instead of approaching the situation with caution, thereby forcing a lethal response.
I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming days, unless reporting bandwidth is taken up by all the other police shootings.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Spelling.

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 9:36 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 627 of 670 (885510)
04-15-2021 3:39 PM


The Causes of Violence
This is my own list of the several causes of violence in this country:
  • Too many guns
  • Increasing lethality of guns.
  • Too much love of guns
  • Racism
  • Poverty
  • A culture of violence in which the police are part of the problem.
  • The attitude that reducing crime requires the threat of lethal force.
  • The belief that no-knock raids are an effective law enforcement tool.
  • The arming of police. If you can point it they shouldn't have it.
  • The effect of allowing police forces to prey upon communities with impunity. There's a "cops are almost never charged let alone convicted" rule. Almost any kill is a good kill when a cop does it. Take almost any example and replace the cop with someone else and you'll get an entirely opposite legal result. If mental health workers instead of police had murdered actress Vanessa Marquez, would they would have walked? If a neighborhood watch group instead of police had murdered Tamir Rice as he played with a toy gun, would they have walked? There are so many examples (Google "remember their names") that this list item could go on for pages, but I'll stop after two.
  • The belief that bad apples are responsible for police violence.
  • The belief that more training is the solution to police violence.
  • The absurd notion that training somehow provides superhuman powers of judgment and discernment. The actual effect of training seems to be to scare the hell out of police to the point of paranoia, to the point where there primary directive is to protect themselves at the expense of all others. Emptying clips of bullets into people is one symptom.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 628 of 670 (885516)
04-16-2021 9:07 AM


Gee, What A Surprise!
Gee, what a surprise, it's happened again: Police: 8 dead in shooting at FedEx facility in Indianapolis - POLITICO
I'm sure people often wonder why shooters are so successful. How does one person kill 8 and injure more? The answer is lethality. Modern shooters don't use the old .22 rounds that travel straight. No, they instead use .223's designed to tumble and cause mass destruction. When they hit you they don't create a small hole - they create a chasm. Wounds are huge tortured landscapes of rendered flesh. The few survivors will carry massive scars and disabilities for life.
But that's what a person needs today for personal defense today, right? Stopping power! Even somebody just winged with one of these rounds ain't goin' anywhere. How else are you going to defend yourself without one of these?
Getting back to police shootings, I usually listen to 15 or 20 minutes of NPR every morning, and today it was reassuring to hear an interviewed professor say the same thing I've been saying for years: police making traffic stops, directing traffic, performing wellness checks and so forth do not need guns, and in fact they are counterproductive.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by vimesey, posted 04-16-2021 9:36 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 630 of 670 (885535)
04-17-2021 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by vimesey
04-16-2021 9:36 AM


Re: Gee, What A Surprise!
I couldn't be precise about what the NRA is doing today because their leader and the organization is distracted by lawsuits and bankruptcy motions. If they've issued statements about the recent spate of shootings, which is usually their habit, they either haven't done so this time or I somehow missed it in the news.
But certainly up until the very recent past much of what they've said has been lies. They don't even want the American people to have the information necessary to an informed judgment. I don't know how well it's known outside the US, or even inside the US for that matter, but there's a law that prevents the federal government from conducting or sponsoring research into guns, be it about safety, lethality or whatever. All gun research must be funded privately or by the states. The NRA was largely responsible for that law. Without looking it up I would guess it was passed during the Clinton administration (the 1990's).
30 years or more ago the NRA was more like the AAA, a helpful organization. If the AAA were like the NRA today they would be advocating for bigger, faster, more fuel guzzling and more dangerous vehicles. Seat belts and air bags and crash bumpers and roll cages and speed limits and traffic lights would all be infringement on our freedoms rather than benefits we receive from living in a civilized society. The mere existence of the NRA in its present form argues against ours being a civilized society. As Biden accurately put it, gun violence in the US is to out international shame.
--Percy

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 Message 629 by vimesey, posted 04-16-2021 9:36 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 631 of 670 (885536)
04-17-2021 7:56 AM


More Add Their Voices to Taking Away Police Guns
An ediorial in yesterday's Washingon Post: Opinion: Get police out of the business of traffic stops
I hope more and more people come to think this way, that a highly armed, paranoid and bunker-mentality police force is not what we need. Any police out there who think they're in a war are in the wrong business. They should join the army.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

Edited by Percy, : Fix URL.


Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 9:27 AM Percy has replied
 Message 634 by AZPaul3, posted 04-17-2021 4:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 633 of 670 (885549)
04-17-2021 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Phat
04-17-2021 9:27 AM


Re: More Add Their Voices to Taking Away Police Guns
Phat writes:
Wonder what would replace them? Drones?
Are you asking what would replace armed officers enforcing our traffic laws? How about unarmed officers?
Take the example of former Minneapolis police offer Kim Potter, who felt the need to force Daunte Wright into compliance by firing her Taser at him but mistakingly firing her gun. If she had no gun and no Taser then Daunte Wright would have driven happily off into the night to be picked up by arresting officers later in the week. Kim Potter would still have a job and no legal troubles. The legal docket of Minneapolis would have one less manslaughter case. Down the road Minneapolis's insurance company will not have to pay out a multi-million dollar settlement.
quote:
these traffic safety agencies should rely on automation — including speed and red-light cameras. Although we must remain vigilant to ensure that these machines aren’t disproportionately placed in Black neighborhoods, at least we know cameras don’t demean, pepper spray, or kill.
.
That's kinda been your point all along? Huh Percy...
In part. More generally, this is not the wild west. In the vast majority of situations we do not need law enforcement officers walking around with guns on their hips. Imagine a police officer in the center of an intersection directing traffic. Why does he need a gun?
I think how widely statistics are misunderstood is a big part of the problem. Imagine you're attending a gathering at my house where no one has a gun and there is no gun on the premises. One of the attendees is illegally parked and a policeman knocks on the door. Because he has a gun the possibility of someone in the house being shot has just increased.
The obvious rebuttal is, "Sure, but only by a microscopic amount." But that bubble of increased likelihood of a shooting follows that policeman around wherever he goes. Right now he's at my house, but a little later he'll be at a gas station, later at the Dunkin' Donuts, and later walking around a property whose residents are on vacation, and so forth. And he's and the gun are literally attached at the hip. It follows him around wherever he goes. And he's a danger to society not because he's a bad cop or because there's anything wrong with his training but just because he's human it's possible for a situation to arise where he fires a round or seven into someone.
The fault is not Kim Potter's (killed Daunte Wright) or Eric Stillman (killed 13-year-old Adam Toledo) or any of the other police officers who killed people. The fault is the system that places guns in officers' hands and then expects them to turn them into constructive instruments of law enforcement. It just isn't possible.
Adding a related point, it is almost never necessary to sneak up to someone's door with a battering ram and then burst inside yelling stuff that can't be understood and certainly not comprehended in real time. Given the number of guns out there the police will inevitably encounter people who believe they are under attack and will fire back.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 9:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 640 of 670 (885630)
04-20-2021 8:05 PM


The Chauvin Conviction
I suppose there are several ways to look at the Chauvin conviction, but the're one that scares me, and that's how horrific police malfeasance must be before a conviction can happen. A common police motto is to serve and protect, and they do this very well when they think you're one of the people they're supposed to serve and protect. It works horribly when they misread a situation and employ their "serve and protect" skills against law abiding citizens or use an inappropriately harsh level of force.
A recent example of this latter case is the 73-year-old woman with dementia who was battered, bruised and had her arm broken after walking out of a Walmart without paying for $14 of merchandise (Prosecutors open criminal probe into police who allegedly broke the arm of a 73-year-old woman with dementia). It's gratifying to know the officer involved has been fired and two others who were present placed on desk duty, but examples like this are so dismaying because they tell us how little tolerance they have and how little discretion they employ. And there are apparently too many training courses for police officers that only increase their paranoia and the likelihood that they'll one day commit a true crime against the public they're pledged to protect.
Anyone with diminished mental capacity is in for a tough time in encounters with law enforcement because on a bad day they get really upset really fast when their instructions aren't followed. This reminds of the deaf man police murdered when he ignored their instructions from behind him to drop the metal pipe he was holding (Oklahoma City Police Fatally Shoot Deaf Man Despite Yells Of 'He Can't Hear' : The Two-Way : NPR).
There's a problem with law enforcement in this country, there has been for a long time, and the evidence can be seen as DA after DA declines to press charges and trial after trial proves just how difficult it is to hold police accountable.
What do I want? Obviously the laws affecting police accountability have to change but what I want is to feel more safe as a policeman approaches, not less. How do I think we can do that? Except for police patrolling designated areas, take away the guns, the Tasers, the nightsticks and the pepper spray. The safety officer in the high school? He gets none of these. The officer conducting speed stops? Him either. Directing traffic? Nope. Wellness checks? No way. Domestic disturbance? Uh-uh. Loud party? No.
Unless I have the misfortune of being present when a crime is committed, when I'm walking or shopping or driving or recreating or any other normal activity of life then I should never find myself in the presence of a gun just because a policeman is nearby.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

Replies to this message:
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 04-21-2021 6:40 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 646 of 670 (885643)
04-21-2021 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by Phat
04-21-2021 6:40 AM


Re: Life After Chauvin Conviction: Same Story
They could take baby steps on the way to taking away the guns, maybe smaller caliber weapons or rubber bullets.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 04-21-2021 6:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 652 of 670 (885670)
04-22-2021 5:55 AM


Yet Another Police Murder
Yesterday Andrew Brown was shot and killed in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, as he drove away from a sheriff's deputy serving a search warrant. (Black man shot and killed by sheriff’s deputy in North Carolina | Andrew Brown shooting | The Guardian)
The circumstances are very similar to Daunte Wright's, whose murderer, Kim Potter, has been formally charged in court with second-degree manslaughter. Hopefully the deputy and any others who fired shots will be arrested under similar charges.
Elizabeth City will eventually pay Andrew Brown's family a multi-million dollar settlement. One wonders why the financial pressures of making insurance payments don't cause municipalities to pressure their police departments to avoid unnecessary violence. There are no reports that Andrew Brown had a gun, but he did have a history of drug charges.
Only the most elite of police forces should have the means and the right to make a determination that an on-the-spot capital execution is necessary. It's way past time to get the guns out of the hands of the yahoos.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:24 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 654 of 670 (885706)
04-23-2021 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by dwise1
04-22-2021 11:24 AM


Re: Yet Another Police Murder
We are so far apart. Neither Daunte Wright nor Andrew Brown nor Adam Toledo ("that kid in Chicago") nor Ma’Khia Bryant nor (how many pages of names are needed) committed anything near a capital crime nor did anything close to deserving death. Your characterization of Adam Toledo's murder as a justified killing because he improperly choreographed how he moved ("too stupid" was your description of this 13-year-old) is just a further indictment of police actions and attitudes that are, incredibly, actually encouraged and endorsed by (apparently, if your post is any indication) members of the public.
The extreme paranoia of police for their own safety that you briefly touched on comes at the expense of the safety of the public they are pledged to protect. The veil of immunity and impunity for police needs to come down. Take away their guns so they murder fewer people and they won't feel the need for such strong legal protections.
Your comment about your son receiving training that sets "a very definite mentality to take total control" is a huge cause of the problem. You claim that without it people die, but with it people also die, a lot. Our police forces send powder kegs of fear and paranoia and anxiety out to patrol our streets every day. It's a miracle more people aren't killed, and it's a crime (can we call it a hate crime?) that so disproportionate a number of their victims are minorities.
Your mention of bad cops reminds me of how Christians define true Christians: if a Christian was thought a true Christian but then does something wrong then that means that obviously they were not a true Christian. That kind of thinking is nonsensical and circular, and the thinking about cops is the same. As long as they do nothing wrong they're good cops, but as soon as they do something wrong then that means that they're bad cops, deficient in character or judgment or in some other way.
But there aren't good cops and bad cops, just as they're aren't good Christians and bad Christians. For the most part they're all just normal people. But by the laws of statistics it is guaranteed that a certain percentage of good people will do bad things. They are, most of them, still good people.
We are making a major mistake if we think we can solve the policing problem by rooting out the bad cops. If the police want to go on a witch hunt for the bad cops among them they need only look in the mirror and they'll see a bad cop. And a good one, too.
The problem is systemic. Too many people have guns, including too many police. And too many people in law enforcement, and not just the rank and file, believe force and fear are fundamental to law enforcement. Too many police training courses encourage this kind of thinking.
There are not two sides to every story. If you think there are, tell that to George Floyd and innumerable others.
I feel a great deal of sadness for Kim Potter who is a very good cop who made a tragic mistake not because she was careless or poorly trained or lacked judgment or was impaired or anything like that, but because she is human and human beings make mistakes. In any very large population of people armed with both guns and Tasers, a certain small percentage will on occasion pull one when they intended the other. In a very strong sense the mistake was not Kim Potter's. The mistake was a society's that provided her a career path that appealed to her because of the good she could do and then immersed her in a culture of paranoia and fear and violence, providing her mostly hammers as tools.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:24 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 655 of 670 (885709)
04-23-2021 1:10 PM


A Little Humor
Discussion of police incidents brought this Far Side comic to mind:
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 656 of 670 (885741)
04-25-2021 9:59 AM


I'm sure everyone's been following with very close attention and would never confuse Andrew Brown (dead, thanks to the police) with Isaiah Brown (alive, no thanks to the police) who has 10 bullet wounds because he was holding a phone to his head. The true stupidity of the deputy (people who read my stuff know that I'm really reluctant to reach that conclusion since I believe police problems are systemic and not due to bad apples) is revealed when you learn that he'd just dropped Isaiah Brown off at his house moments before because Brown's car had broken down a few miles away, it was very late at night around 3 AM, and the deputy was a nice buy who gave him a ride home so he could call for help.
Shot 10 times for pulling out a phone? Why 10 times? Was he pointing the phone at the deputy? Did Brown refuse instructions to stop calling Democratic PACs?
The deputy actually thought Brown had the gun pointed to his head. We know this because he shouted into his radio, "He's got a gun to his head." And so, apparently, when Brown walked toward the deputy with the phone pointed at his head the deputy felt threatened. And Brown probably didn't hear the deputy's instructions to stop soon enough because he was having a loud conversation with his brother on his gun, er, phone.
You can't make this stuff up, folks. It would be like the Marx Brothers sometimes if it weren't so tragic. Here's advice I've given before: If you're in the presence of police put your phone away. Put everything away. Stand in bright light. Hold your arms away from your sides. Collectively as a group police are anxious and paranoid. Keep your eyes on that gun, one hand is likely resting on it, and be prepared to take cover. Oh, did I forget to add that if you're white you only have to worry about this 25% as much? Here's a recent article: Deputy who shot Black man appears to mistake phone for gun
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by Phat, posted 04-26-2021 9:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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