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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 430 of 670 (868389)
12-11-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Percy
12-11-2019 2:19 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:
Most of that is post facto information.
Armed police were called to a multiple stabbing and suspected terrorist attack. It is not post facto.
It hasn't been established that the police thought he was wearing a suicide vest at the time he was killed, and that he was shot in the chest and abdomen argues against it.
So lets 'hold fire' before calling the police executioners should we?
Might be a good idea to wait until then before reaching conclusions.
Quite.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 2:19 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 8:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 439 of 670 (868415)
12-12-2019 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Percy
12-11-2019 7:39 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:
That wasn't my argument.
You didn't have an argument, you just declared them executions.
What I said is factual.
It's pure speculation. You have no idea what information the police were given. At the very least the police would know that someone is attacking people with a knife on London Bridge. It would be communicated at the very least as a suspected, life threatening terrorist incident.
I could agree that the armed police officers might easily have considered the possibility that they were responding to a terrorist incident, but it wasn't classified as such until after the fact.
Irrelevant
We both have access to all the same information. Neither of us was an eyewitness to any of it. You are no different from me.
But you're the one accusing the police of acting as executioners.
If you've been following this thread then you know that I periodically check for updates on the incidents I've posted about. At some point an official report will be issued and people can look back on what they've posted here and see how well their speculations panned out.
Well you'll see that the guy that attached the terrorist with a fire extinguisher says that he was wearing a suicide belt not a vest. He saw it inside the building and taunted him to detonate it. The terrorist said that he was waiting for the police.
He was the guy that sat on top of the terrorist. He shouted to the police that he had a suicide belt on and told them to shoot him. Which they did.
quote:
He said: "It seemed like ages before they shot him. It wasn't all gung-ho and trigger happy, they proper took their time, to the point where I did scream 'shoot him'."
London Bridge attack: Reformed prisoner who fought knifeman 'prepared to die' - BBC News
You'll hear more if you can find the recording of the interview I just heard on the radio.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 7:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by vimesey, posted 12-12-2019 6:46 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 443 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:40 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 442 of 670 (868429)
12-12-2019 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by vimesey
12-12-2019 6:31 AM


Re: Some useful testimony from London Bridge.
Been there, done that ;-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by vimesey, posted 12-12-2019 6:31 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 450 of 670 (868449)
12-12-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:40 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:
But it's also inconsistent with police firing into the chest and abdomen. If Crilly really yelled at the police that the suspect had a suicide belt then either they didn't hear him or didn't believe him, because the police were not taking head shots. Killing a defenseless man rolling around in pain from previous gun shots is an execution. If you don't like that word then try murder or assassination.
I give up, you've totally lost the plot.
To summarise. A terrorist wearing a suicide belt (that turned out to be fake) murdered two people and attempted to murder more. Civilians intervened armed police were called to the incident, they were told that the murderers was wearing a suicide belt, they saw the belt so they shot him dead.
Excellent result, well done.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:40 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 452 of 670 (868483)
12-13-2019 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:06 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:
How do you justify this?
He was a terrorist that had murdered two people and was actively trying to murder still more.
There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out. Meanwhile the people that put their lives at risk by running towards harm to protect us deserve our support, not condemnation as executioners.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 9:45 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 457 of 670 (868505)
12-13-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by caffeine
12-13-2019 9:45 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Caffeine writes:
How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one.
If you think every shooting in the history of the British police force was A-OK then I have a bridge you might be interested in.
I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is. If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 9:45 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 6:36 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 7:49 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 459 of 670 (868546)
12-14-2019 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by caffeine
12-13-2019 6:36 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
caffeine writes:
Two things seem clear to me:
1. The police in Britain are essentially immune from prosecution for their actions.
This one is clear from results; but in fairness could be explained by the police in Britain never abusing their power.
Quite obviously they are not - they are subject to the same laws as all of us and the prosecution and legal system are independent.
But of course there are instances of police abusing power and being downright criminal.
However other things are clear to me
2. The police in Britain regularly abuse their power. This is based on personal experience so I don't expect you to believe it, but it's intended more to explain my thinking.
I'm sure these things happen, but I don't believe that our criminal justice system is institutionally corrupt.
Maybe I should try and make this argument better when sober.
Maybe :-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 6:36 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 464 of 670 (868583)
12-14-2019 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Percy
12-14-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Police Should Not Kill Unnecessarily
Percy writes:
I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements.
And I don't understand why you can't see that this was a terrorist that had knifed two people - killing both of them - was wearing a (fake) suicide vest and attempting to kill as many more people as he could on the same bridge as one of his compatriots had killed 8 people only 2 years earlier.
At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all.
Oh, really? Only one had died so far, well that changes everything. Ffs. Even if they didn't know anyone had died, please show how this matters.
Sorry, I'm too angry to read the rest of your armchair crap. This was a terrorist attack in central London - like several before - that by the intervention of some heroic civilians and by very prompt actions by the police saved a lot of lives. I'll wait for the inquest to find the facts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 8:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 488 of 670 (877171)
06-06-2020 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by xongsmith
06-05-2020 6:00 PM


Re: The Silencing of the Press
That actually made me cry. The last time that happened was when my dad died years ago.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by xongsmith, posted 06-05-2020 6:00 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 636 of 670 (885622)
04-20-2021 5:33 PM


Didn't like Biden's intervention. Ground for appeal.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by vimesey, posted 04-20-2021 5:42 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 638 by nwr, posted 04-20-2021 7:16 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 639 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 7:43 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 643 of 670 (885639)
04-21-2021 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by AZPaul3
04-20-2021 11:05 PM


AZP writes:
I can feel where people would squirm at this. He did that call and made those statements after the jury had been sequestered, which means, ideally, the jury never saw it.
He couldn't possibly know that. Ideally and legally he shouldn't have said anything.
His statements, given the moment, were appropriate for, not just our political leader, but the bully pulpit of a moral leader.
It was a very public political intervention from the very top that made it round the world. It could be expected to influence a verdict if it was heard.
None of this could I consider intervention.
It absolutely was.
I agree that, for optics and our revered view of the presidency, he should have waited until the verdict was actually announced
He should have kept his mouth shut not just because of how it looked but because it was very nearly an instruction to the jury to find for a particular verdict..
but, there appears no harm done
How do you know?
Even in this we have to rejoice in the fact that Pres. Biden is not just leading this nation with law books, but with a human heart. Quite a change from last year.
Sure and thank god for that, but he should have kept his mouth shut until after the court had done it's work. Separation of powers etc.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 10:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 648 of 670 (885645)
04-21-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by AZPaul3
04-21-2021 10:32 AM


AZP writes:
This is America. If Biden's "intervention" had influenced anything in the trial at all the defense team and the press would crucify his butt. Fox and OAN are still out there.
It was a really, really stupid thing to do. If it had been Trump, there would be outrage. As it is he's created this kind of opportunity
"Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) said Tuesday that President Biden's comments on the trial of Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis police officer charged with the death of George Floyd last year, could lead to a mistrial in the case.
The Texas senator's remarks came after Biden commented on the trial during questions he fielded in the Oval Office earlier Tuesday. "
https://thehill.com/...hauvin-verdict-grounds-for-a-mistrial

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 10:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 11:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 650 of 670 (885647)
04-21-2021 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by AZPaul3
04-21-2021 11:10 AM


AZP writes:
Ted Cruz the insurrectionist? Really. You know he's a political opportunist with an axe to grind, right? Of course he, and others, would try to lambaste the president for anything.
Of course I know that - Biden gave him the ammunition to promote the mistrial angle.
The point is, Tangle, Biden's comments meant nothing and this society, right now, doesn't care what the right-wing demagogues have to say about it.
He should know better than to make those kinds of statements at any time during a trial. If the defence now calls for a retrial it'll become an even more politicised action. I really can't believe he said that at that point, the separation of politics from jurisprudence is a core part of all our democracies.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 11:10 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 12:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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