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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 121 of 127 (885705)
04-23-2021 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by dwise1
04-22-2021 11:45 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
1984 Norma Crane Eddie Albert Studio One 1953

Eddie Albert was really Winston Smith


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:45 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 04-23-2021 2:20 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 122 of 127 (885707)
04-23-2021 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
04-22-2021 10:15 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:

If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer.


They're not "my" rules. They're THE rules - and YOU follow them in every instance but one.

If everybody FOLLOWED the rules in every instance, nobody would be a believer - and that would be a good thing.

Phat writes:

What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists...


Again, for the same reasons YOU reject the research and arguments of the Santa-believers.

Phat writes:

... and accept the mythicists and other secular sholars with an axe to grind against the Jesus.


I have never read a single word by any "mythicist" so you can stop using that tired old PRATT.

Phat writes:

And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.


And AGAIN you say nothing to actually back up your position. SHOW us the difference between your god and all the other gods.

Phat writes:

If so, how is it that you once were a believer...if in fact you only ha empty beliefs to work with?


Duh. I recognized that the beliefs were empty, so I dropped them.

Phat writes:

If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs.


Nonsense. People ignore the evidence or reject the evidence. That doesn't make the evidence subjective. It makes the people fools.

Phat writes:

And as I have tried to convince you time and time agin, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal.


Nope. All you ever do is repeat that opinion. You never make the slightest effort to back it up.

Phat writes:

If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians...


Argument from popularity. Invalid. PRATT.

Phat writes:

I invoke the appeal to popularity


Which is a fallacy.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 04-23-2021 2:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 127 (885710)
04-23-2021 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
04-23-2021 7:03 AM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
jar writes:

Look at your accounts of your experience Phat.
What parts are actual reporting and what parts are pure inference?

I'll bite. I feel like challenging myself this morning. My feelings for the Lord are strong, which gives me the courage to question my beliefs. Perhaps it is intangibles such as "feelings for the Lord" that led to so many inferences gleaned from other inferences which accompanied reports of reports in the monolith known as Biblical Christianity. I am reluctantly trying to approach these questions and self assertions from different angles. Perhaps I actually can learn to think...but only if it helps others more than the way that the apologists taught me to do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 04-23-2021 7:03 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 127 (885713)
04-23-2021 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
04-23-2021 12:23 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Finally we are getting somewhere!

OK here we go, Oh Saskatchewan Contrarian.

Phat writes:

If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer.


They're not "my" rules. They're THE rules - and YOU follow them in every instance but one.
And that One represents my stand. You cant simply expect me to critically evaluate the object of my faith/character of my belief as if He were just another Harry Potter character. I mean...I am reluctantly trying...but I am not in any way comfortable with non belief.

If everybody FOLLOWED the rules in every instance, nobody would be a believer - and that would be a good thing.
At last! You said what I have wanted you to say. So explain to me why it would be a good thing if we had a world where nobody believed in any Gods/Sources (which I think is impossible, by the way) and everyone was simply empathetic, humanistic, and followed a universal inclusive message that was love.self sacrificial, and geared towards universal love. I mean, it sounds great! I need to ask myself why I resist it.

Phat writes:

What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists...


Again, for the same reasons YOU reject the research and arguments of the Santa-believers.

Nope. You cant lump my one stand...my one belief which I stand on...and throw it in a pile with Santa believers and flat earth believers and Harry Potter believers.

Phat writes:

And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.


And AGAIN you say nothing to actually back up your position. SHOW us the difference between your god and all the other gods.
Showing you the difference will likely involve a lifetime. The Spirit only moves in people. Perhaps you too have it(Holy Spirit) and don't realize that you do...yet you do good. I will say that if you had the spaghetti monster spiritor you followed the Stan Lee spirit of creative imagination we could only judge whether they were extensions of the Holy Spirit(of which there is but One) based on what you did with what you had.

ringo writes:

I recognized that the beliefs were empty, so I dropped them.

The beliefs are sound. It is the human dogma and inferences from generations of apologists that are empty. (see? You won that one. But we have yet to prove that all apologists are dishonest)

Phat writes:

If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs.


ringo writes:

Nonsense. People ignore the evidence or reject the evidence. That doesn't make the evidence subjective. It makes the people fools.

I will cautiously agree that many, not [strike]all[/strike] believers are at worst fools and at best parrots. But I will also assert that some of us were more patient than you were and found substance in beliefs where you hastily found only emptiness.

Phat writes:

And as I have tried to convince you time and time agin, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal.


Nope. All you ever do is repeat that opinion. You never make the slightest effort to back it up.
Play devils advocate a moment. Can it even be backed up? How can you make an argument defending one God over other Gods? Ravi Zacharias once wrote a book about it...but his credibility got shot to pieces, ironically...because he ended up following the wrong god and got busted and exposed for it.

Phat writes:

If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians...


Argument from popularity. Invalid. PRATT.
WRONG. You want to throw this one away, but it is a valid argument. You cant defend relativity among many Gods while ignoring the fact that only one of them has an army of followers, evidence of changed lives, and many homeless getting fed, much spare change flowing, and positive creativity in general.

My point is that *some* apologists and *some* Biblical Christians are very creative, empathetic, and useful. There are virtually no Big Foot believers doing anything. The assertion that Big Foot=Jesus is itself a PRATT.

Phat writes:

I invoke the appeal to popularity


Which is a fallacy.
If it is a fallacy for Biblical Christians it is a fallacy for non believers. You dont get to claim that you all live in reality while we all live in fantasy...at least not without a better argument.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 12:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 3:28 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 125 of 127 (885714)
04-23-2021 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
04-23-2021 2:51 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:

You cant simply expect me to critically evaluate the object of my faith/character of my belief as if He were just another Harry Potter character.


Sure I can. A lot of us here have done that.

Phat writes:

So explain to me why it would be a good thing if we had a world where nobody believed in any Gods/Sources


You should think about that and answer it for yourself.

By the way, Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.

Phat writes:

You cant lump my one stand...my one belief which I stand on...and throw it in a pile with Santa believers and flat earth believers and Harry Potter believers.


Yes I can. I've done it several times in this thread already. Why can't you give any coherent response?

Phat writes:

Showing you the difference will likely involve a lifetime.


Then you'd better start now when we've still got a little lifetime left.

Phat writes:

The Spirit only moves in people.


Copout.

Phat writes:

But we have yet to prove that all apologists are dishonest


We have a perfect score so far. Feel free to roll out the next victim.

Phat writes:

But I will also assert that some of us were more patient than you were and found substance in beliefs where you hastily found only emptiness.


It has nothing to do with patience. Empty is empty; it doesn't take long to figure that out. What can take a long time is accepting what you know deep down is true.

And I was not hasty. I've been thinking about this a lot longer than you have.

Phat writes:

Play devils advocate a moment. Can it even be backed up?


If you can't back it up, that should be a strong indication that it isn't true.

Phat writes:

How can you make an argument defending one God over other Gods?


How can you make an argument defending Fred Flintstone over Homer Simpson? How would that argument be anything but empty?

Phat writes:

... only one of them has an army of followers, evidence of changed lives, and many homeless getting fed, much spare change flowing, and positive creativity in general.


False. Stupidly false.

ALL Gods have followers. Some of them have many more followers than yours.

Phat writes:

The assertion that Big Foot=Jesus is itself a PRATT.


How so? It has never been refuted. 0<1000.

Phat writes:

If it is a fallacy for Biblical Christians it is a fallacy for non believers.


Of course.

And I'll remind you again that you are not a "Biblical Christian" since you reject the Bible as a "dusty old book".

Phat writes:

You dont get to claim that you all live in reality while we all live in fantasy...


It's not a "claim". It's supported by evidence. "We" can all agree on what reality is, whether we're atheists or Christians or Jews or Muslims or whatever. You believers can't even agree on what your fantasy is like.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 04-23-2021 2:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 127 (885720)
04-24-2021 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
04-23-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
ringo writes:

By the way, Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.

Speculation. You want this to be true yet you simply cannot prove it. Im telling you that God was around long before humans. (Or perhaps I should elaborate. One of the Gods was around long before humans. The rest of them we made up.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 3:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 04-24-2021 3:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 127 of 127 (885725)
04-24-2021 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
04-24-2021 12:03 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.

Speculation.

Nope. Conclusion based on evidence. Even you understand that the OTHER gods are made up in human minds.

Phat writes:

You want this to be true yet you simply cannot prove it.


As I've told you many times, I do NOT just want it to be true. It would be a comfort to me if there was a real god watching over me - but there isn't.

And I DO have evidence that gods are made up in human minds. See above.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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