Believers must be truthful and honest. Believers must always think about what they believe, even question what they believe in order to root out error in their own thinking. But by thinking about and questioning what they believe, they are actively working through and actively thinking about their beliefs which is vital to spiritual growth.
I sense a good deal of honesty in your advice. Even though you claim atheism, I will do well to heed this basic advice. jar has been trying to tell me it for years, but he insults my intelligence too much so I blow him off usually.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Although it COULD be that he is addressing your demon. I would give him a bit more time before writing him off as an insincere critic. He calls me "brother" and thats more than you ever did. You get on my case for calling the Bible a "Dusty Old Book".
Robert: I may as well let you know that ringo knows his scripture quite well. He is a bit clueless about Jesus being more than a character in the book, but he does advocate following the "Message" rather than the Messenger. I argue that both are equally important. He used to attend church but became disillusioned when he saw so few Christians doing what Jesus told them to do but, rather, running around casting demons out of people, eating at Dennys, attending prophetic conferences and selling books.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I resent the notion that somehow atheism is above reproach. It isn't. It deserves the exact same scrutiny we give any faith. You are one of the smart ones that is willing to question themselves. For now, that is enough for me.
Welcome to EvC, Robert. Pull up a stump and set a spell. One thing you will find after watching us all interact is that most of us are critical thinkiers and evidence based learners. Many of thee guys would argue with your assertion that atheism is a belief. They see it as the ultimate non belief. They would claim that all of us are unbelievers in most gods but that they believe in one less than you or I.
I learn their arguments and I try and defend mine, but they have caused me to question and agree with some of what is said. I do not doubt that God is real and alive, but it scares me were I to be a good critical thinker and honestly attempt to falsify my belief. I suppose I see it as a slap in the face of Jesus, but critics may argue that if the God I believe in is real, He is tough enough to handle my attempts at falsifying Him. What scares me though is that lots of these guys stopped being believers.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I suppose its time for me to weigh-in to this series of conversations. Robert,I will not take sides here only due to the fact that you say that you will continue to love and pray for anyone whom you see as a tool of the enemy. I will comment publicly about some of the veteran members whom I engage in conversations, debates, and arguments with on nearly a daily basis for many years. I have learned the art of snake charming, and if there are any snakes here in Percys pit they have served to strengthen my own basic arguments which I feel strongly about as well as to challenge some of the PRATTS and ideological dogmas which I picked up through many years of interaction with the local church. So here I go:
robertleva, henceforth known as RL writes:
The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least. There is false doctrine in every aspect of our lives. Every TV show / game / movie / book has completely accepted a false doctrine of Naturalism. Naturalism is taught to every single child in public school in the USA and in most of the private Christian schools as well. It's pretty tough to hear the truth through all that noise.
As one who has many Christian friends, some of them well meaning such as yourself, I fully understand where you are coming from. I do not totally agree that we should avoid controversy with other humans,however. Iron sharpens iron. Honestly, brother, there have been times when I got so frustrated with EvC Forum that I was ready to leave...thinking that my time on earth could be better spent elsewhere. One thing that I did find here, however, were (like you said)
quote:The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least.
It did surprise me. Still does. There are a number of EvC members who once believed in Jesus Christ as living today and who now regard Him as a cultural myth at best, and an evil cultural meme at worst. So why do I stay? Because I do not see the members here as snakes. They may battle with inner demons, but a case can be made that organized religion here in the United States also battles with these demons and I believe very strongly that we *all* have a spiritual battle within our minds and hearts.
Note what one commentator says: What does Ephesians 6:12 mean? Even in this argument, I have some here who disagree with my choice and chosen sources of interpretation. I don't mind being challenged, even if it were Satan himself who led the Forum against me. (I used to think it was, but Jesus told me to pray for EvC Forum just like you say you are going to do. There are many wise minds and good hearts here, and it is for this reason that I hang around. That plus I just like to argue.
Lets pause a moment and listen to one of my favorite songs:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
But then I see 15000 post count ppl like you and ringo here. Why?
Sixteen years. Thats only about 1000 posts per year, about three per day, not very different from your own posting rate.
robertleva writes:
The only reason you post in here is to do the work of the enemy.
I don't have any enemies. It's too bad that you do.
robertleva writes:
I will not surrender my joy....
You don't seem very joyful.
You mentioned how you reserve the honor of the label Brother to your biological siblings. An interesting story. People at church call me "brother" all the time, but I feel closer to you, AZ, PaulK, Tangle, and even jar (and those of you whom I didnt mention) than I do to the members at church. One thing I have learned at EvC is that GOD Himself,(through Jesus and the Holy Spirit) can not only speak through a Donkey but can and does speak quite adeptly through an atheist, secular humanist, or agnostic. I can always tell when you have the Spirit because you speak with an added sense of humor. Somehow I imagine that the Lord has a big laugh about all of this.,...and yet He weeps as well because so few of His chosen guests even bothered to show up at the banquet.
If I recall, however, you guys went easy on me for the first couple of years I was here. We often take the gloves off and go toe to toe now...and I would imagine that new members end up scratching their heads as to why we park ourselves in this little corner(Percys Secular Chapel) of the internet and rehash the same arguments (albeit using different words,philosophies and approaches)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I came here to speak to others of faith about prayers and the nature of my experiences with God. It is not my place to try to convince you. I have done my part and I will keep you in my prayers now as I said. So please just move on in peace and love my brother, you are wasting your time I assure you.
OK. Lets revisit my topic. (You will find that I am one of the few who dredge up old topics and revisit them...especially if I started them! )
Message 1 Topic Starter writes:
For those of you who pray and who believe that you are having a conversation with God (an entity that you believe is living and aware and that is outside of your conscience,strictly speaking) Perhaps you could share some of the dynamics of the prayers, mantras, and conversations. I realize that for some of us this is an important and personal thing, so lets keep the jokes limited to ourselves.
What do you ask and/or talk about?
Do you hear answers or feel inner confirmation in any way?
Does the action of communication with God change you in any way?
What do you ask and/or talk about? I talk with God nearly all day every day. I am learning to listen more and talk less in my old age. I do hear answers or...more than likely these answers come to me after I pray out loud in my mind. Critics would say I am merely talking to myself, but I wont even bother trying to convince them otherwise. As for changing me, I believe that communication with anyone can and does potentially change me a little bit every day. I prefer not to be an old stick in the mud.
RL writes:
Here is how I pray most often: I start by asking forgiveness for my sins in the name of Jesus. I like to get clean before addressing the Holy Father. Then I pray for whomever has triggered this need in the first place. For example, if I see a homeless person that I cannot directly go out and help, I try to at least say a prayer for them.
When I feel the Lord's presence I get an overwhelming feeling that nearly instantly brings tears. It's a complex feeling, a combination of joy, relief and awe and it is very powerful.
I feel much the same way sometimes. Othet times I feel nothing at all, but I am aware that God is listening. Like Santa Claus, He sees me when I'm sleeping. He knows when Im awake. he knows if Ive been bad or good...so I try for goodness sake!
RL writes:
our original post was asking about how we as individuals pray and what our own personal experiences with God have been like. I absolutely loved this idea for a topic!
But here has been none of that discussion at all...not even from you the original poster. Can I ask you why not? I almost feel like you are standing at the water's edge, just a little too cautious to jump fully into faith. I ask you to jump right into the water and fully embrace Jesus. He will carry your burdens, but you have to give it to Him! Do not let anyone here make you feel any shame for your faith. Be a proud Christian and shrug off these meat hooks that the enemy is trying to get into you.
Ask anyone here how strong my faith is. They never worry about my faith. They are more concerned with my daily actions.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I will say this, however. The peanut gallery here is collectively as good as any apologetic argument online. If I ever become an apologist, I will have them to thank for it.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
In Matthew 25 ALL of the Goats were those who followed Jesus while all of the Sheep were those who did not even know Jesus.
Is there any support for your claim or is that just how you personally interpret it?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Unbelievers tend to treat all beliefs equally. Believers often don't.
And for good reason. Do you treat a Pit Bull whom you encounter the same way you would a puppy or a small friendly dog? Do you treat a known thief the same way you treat a friend? I'm not saying that Jesus never commanded us to do anything other than try. I'm just pointing out the silliness and illogic of relativism. Years ago when I got saved, it was not due to wanting to be accepted into a popular group. And it was not Chutulu or the Spaghetti Monster that I sensed speaking to me inwardly.
It was not Allah. Nor the Apologist. Nor a Saskatchewan Contrarian. I suppose you could argue that it was simply myself...Freuds Super Ego, perhaps. Perhaps my epiphany was finding myself rather than Jesus. But to this day I pray to Him. Sometimes I resist it. I believe that He knows my inner thoughts anyway, so perhaps in my times of resistence/rebellion, He is still providing a teachable moment. There are many imitators and One Original as far as I believe.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The text actually says what is actually written and not what the lying apologists say it should say.
You've never successfully explained why it is that *all* apologists lie or that your disdain for them does not influence your own beliefs. You have failed to explain why so many people have it wrong while you and a few others, many of whom are also evidence based critics who do not believe in the supernatural but champion the cause of works based humanism---somehow have it right.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
This, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons I'm an atheist. After actually studying the Bible. Lots of religious people always tell untruths. About everything. Evidence provided by robertleva. They always tell untruths.
Hold your horses, Pressie. Im trying to unpack what you just said.
I have never been a word for word literalist, though I have to a degree adopted thought for thought literalness. I am well aware that there are Biblical Contradictions, though the reason they never disturbed nor bothered me was because i was a believer. Im never looking for a way to disprove god or Jesus. I am only looking to challenge myself. Unlike many of you, I have not lost my faith--perhaps because it is more important to me than it was to you. And I try not to tell untruths or lie to myself. Please keep me accountable. As for Robert, i'm not sure why you are criticizing him.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Did I say there was something I don't like about religion?
Not really. You are an evidence-based relativist. You have room at the table for every little God and god that the blessed humans have ever thought up. If there was something you didnt like about the religion you say you came from (and out of) it would be the claim to exclusivity. Which kinda goes hand in hand as to why you left it.
ringo, to Robert writes:
When have I ever been anything but nice to you?
You are usually quite nice. The God whom you left still uses you. You will of course deny that. My God will always trump your evidence in my thinking. It is your incomplete and prematurely deduced evidence that led you astray. Why on earth would I want that?
ringo writes:
Your God is not alone in the race. He isn't even ahead.
Well it was you who let all of the other ones in. And I'll bet that none of them are ahead.
ringo writes:
The next step is to realize that that "spirit" has nothing to do with any external entity.
Keyword: External. So if a guy like you believes in no external entities, he must either have no belief or believe in himself.
ringo writes:
I always give believers a fair chance. I just don't swallow their hooks, lines and sinkers. When they start seeing demons in me, they've blown their fair chance.
Chance dies not exist. When you became an evidence based thinker/believer, you stacked your deck with probability (measurable and finite) versus chance (hypothetical and infinitely mysterious). If you ever went with chance over God, you would lose the bet.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I'll admit that my Jesus goes easier on me than one you would give me which you found in that dusty old book!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I wont defend them (religious people) We do tend to try and move goalposts in an attempt to defend our faith. Whether this is intentional or not, I cannot say. I for one seek to be as honest as I can possibly be while still preserving my beliefs. Maybe thats our collective issue. Critical thinkers are taught to attempt to falsify. It scares us. Makes us feel weak. Indecisive.
I was always taught to stand for something or I would fall for anything.
I need to find the courage to stand and having done all..to stand.
Without lying to myself.
Its like juggling chainsaws.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Yes, the Jesus you made up tells you to avoid the straight and narrow.
Not really. He just does not want to give me more than I can handle at the moment. He knows that if He told me to give everything up I would run from Him. But He wont let me win, either.
Often He uses you to keep me humble. I wish He would let me create my own Jesus instead of having to obey Him. So tell me why Christianity was so empty. Was it the religion, the history, or the people?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
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