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Author | Topic: An Ether-Based Creation Model | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Time to brush the dust off this bit of haggadah (ie, teaching by telling a story):
quote: An example of the difference between hand-waving and doing the math is arch-creationist Kent Hovind's solar-mass-loss claim: quote: But if you do the math, you get entirely different results than from Mr. Hovind's hand-waving. The total amount of mass lost, while being astronomical (7.88923×1023 tonnes), is only 1/10,000th the total mass of the sun (1.98855×1027 tonnes), which is a few hundredths of one percent. If we were to replace that lost mass to arrive at the mass of the ancient sun 5 billion years ago, the solar gravity then would be so minimally greater that it would have "sucked the earth in" by only about 40,000 miles and would have had no noticeable effect on the sun's size. BTW, in later videos Kent Hovind is seen admonishing his audience to never do the math nor listen to anyone who has done the math. Three guesses why.
Do the math!
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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my ether model would have it that quantum waveforms are primarily generated by etheric processes
What's an "etheric process"?
According to my ether model, what we observe at the quantum level as the peak of a wave represents a cascade of near-quantum ("etheroidal") units, passing into the quantum realm, after being activated, vibrationally, by some outside energy source.
Hmm. "Passing into the quantum realm" -- is that like "Alice through the looking glass"? As far as I can tell, you are just using meaningless words ("etheric" and "etheroidal" for example). Perhaps they are not meaningless to you, but you have not said anything that would make them meaningful to us.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4413 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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I won't try to go into great detail on it That's the problem, you have not gone into any detail, at all. I have noticed that the scientists who make great discoveries have never once convinced other scientists without the details. It sure seems like you are bullshitting us:ether model quantum waveforms etheric processes quantum level peak of a wave represents a cascade of near-quantum ("etheroidal") units the quantum realm activated, vibrationally, by some outside energy source nadir of the wave represents local exhaustion of these energy units etheroidal state into a quantum state ether in the vicinity of the wave reverts to a quieter vibrational state Stringing a bunch of sciencey sounding words together just makes it look like you are just stringing together a bunch of sciencey sounding words. There is no indication from context that you have a clue what they mean. Have you done any calculations?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Michael MD writes:
The university that I attended had about 6000 students at the time. One floor of the library was devoted to science. It had aisles and aisles and aisles of large bound volumes of abstracts - i.e. brief summaries of what was in the papers. The papers themselves contained the details. I won't try to go into great detail on it You can't do science without details."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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All versions of MMX used measurements of light beams … Yes, yes, Mike, I most certainly do understand that you are not talking about a Luminiferous aether - Wikipedia. I understand you’re claiming an aether from a much deeper source. Re-read my Message 11.
quote: Did I use Mickelson against you? Was this language too subtle for you? Did you not see a call for you aether guys to devise your own experiments to show your own brand of aether exists … or not? Why do you get so hung up on MMX? No one cares. Get off the MMX stuff. Get to the real stuff. First, you really need to have a stronger tie into Quantum chromodynamics - Wikipedia under the Standard Model - Wikipedia. Then show us how this aether squares with General relativity - Wikipedia. All the above should be equations, math. Show us how this aether field conforms to Quantum field theory - Wikipedia, specifically QCD. You’re playing in their sandbox now and you need to bring you own toys and be willing to share nice. If you get to a level where I can’t handle it, there are others here who can.
The car ("photon") would not be affected by the individual dust particles ("ether units"), and would pass through without interacting with them at all (no inertial interface; the dust is simply brushed aside.) And in what EV mass range would this dust particle be proposed? Your model needs to define this in the math.
I still claim physics is in error in dismissing the Ether, and in accepting the MMX as evidence. Fine, Mike. Claim away. MMX = strawman. You are not claiming the same definition of aether. Got it. You’re claiming an aether arising like a fine dust from ??? that clumps into life by some unknown abiogenic process. The key is this aether. Is it really there? Other than the earnest pleas of a seemingly confused internet crackpot, why should we look? You can’t tell us what to look for. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Yesterday, upon the stair,
I saw an Ether that wasn't there It wasn't there again today I wish, I wish it would go away... My Website: My Website
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
A kiss is not enough.
Excellent, Sir. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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Just to say for general interest, the quantum wavefunction is not a physical wave. It's a compact summary of an observer's beliefs/credence. Today we often say the "statistical operator" instead.
It no more needs an etheric model than gambling odds in general. |
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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I do not accept wave theories grounded in quantum theory as evidence against the ether, either
nwr mentioned Maxwell's equations, which are classical not quantum. There are quantum versions of them, though their meaning there is quite different, but still still Maxwell's equations are classical.
my ether model would have it that quantum waveforms are primarily generated by etheric processes
Related to my post above, quantum "waveforms" aren't physical things that need to be generated by physical processes. They're just bets/credences/beliefs expressed in a compact mathematical form. It's like saying you have a model for how thermal processes can generate bets on the next election.
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Michael MD Member (Idle past 544 days) Posts: 108 Joined: |
According to my model, the ether initiates the forces that, when they quantize, manifest to our quantum/atomically structured eyes as waveforms. Your argument that Maxwell had some kind of unique approach to wave theory overlooks the fact that Maxwell, just by referring to "waves," is referring to a quantum effect. I fail to see how that would make his approach to "waves" especially dismissive of an underlying ether's role in initiating waves.
The idea of my model, for how observed waveforms are generated by underlying ether, is that firstly, any outside source of energy would necessarily have to have an etheric component, and the etheric units of the outside energy would exert the energy's linear forces, as it encroaches upon a local area in its path, where the ether is unenergized, and vibrating quietly and randomly. This affects the unenergized "local" ether units, by aligning their vibrations, which causes them to begin entraining, which forms larger and larger ether units, which could be called "etheroidal." Etheroidal units are still within the vibrational dynamic of the ether, but as they entrain further, they become quantum-sized, and at that point, become visible as a wave, which reaches a peak, then, as the local etheroidal units become exhausted, the ether returns to its prior quiet state, represented visually as a nadir in the waveform.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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The university that I attended had about 6000 students at the time. One floor of the library was devoted to science. It had aisles and aisles and aisles of large bound volumes of abstracts - i.e. brief summaries of what was in the papers. The papers themselves contained the details. On CompuServe around 1990 I knew the only honest YEC I know of, Merle. Instead of pulling all those dishonest tricks, he would actually try to answer questions. Including doing the research needed to answer those questions honestly. Within a year he was no longer on the YEC side but rather was arguing against YEC claims. Hence my contention that honest creationists do no last long. In his own account, it was the university library that turned him. While researching a creationist claim that transitional fossils do not exist, he found himself staring at aisle after aisle of scientific journals filled with detailed descriptions of one transitional fossil after another after another, etc. From his Did we evolve?:
quote: There's lots more to Merle's account, including meeting Jim who tried to lead him into ID. Merle found that ID didn't work either. To quote Jewish wisdom from "Sayings of the Fathers" (Pirke Avoth): quote:
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Michael MD Member (Idle past 544 days) Posts: 108 Joined: |
In asking "where to look" for the ether, my response would be that a fresh new approach to field investigation would be needed. My private research indicates that, in order to elicit physical evidence of an ether, you would need a new kind of approach, eschewing traditional kinds of laboratory investigations, and instead attempt to elicit etheric forces from natural earth sources.
I couldn't go into the details of how I would set up such a field study, over the Internet. The first etheric effect sought for would be levitation. -If a levitation effect was predicted in advance, and then found, it would be strong evidence that it really was due to ether.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4413 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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According to my model, the ether initiates the forces that, when they quantize, manifest to our quantum/atomically structured eyes as waveforms. Your argument that Maxwell had some kind of unique approach to wave theory overlooks the fact that Maxwell, just by referring to "waves," is referring to a quantum effect. I fail to see how that would make his approach to "waves" especially dismissive of an underlying ether's role in initiating waves. That's pretty funny, you explaining Bullshit to an actual physicist, Son Goku.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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Your argument that Maxwell had some kind of unique approach to wave theory overlooks the fact that Maxwell, just by referring to "waves," is referring to a quantum effect
Fair play to Maxwell referring to quantum effects, since they're from a theory formulated forty six years after his death. Those etheric particles gave him precognition.
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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Since convincing Michael would be like poor Cnut commanding the tide, I thought a little summary of quantum theory would be nice.
The basic set up of quantum theory involves three components:
Quantum Theory's central concern is predicting the chance of how the microscopic system will affect the macroscopic system. To this it requires two pieces of information:
The theory will then spit out the chances of various effects occurring given (i) and (ii) as inputs. If you plan to look at the system again after the current experiment it also calculates how the observer should update their beliefs based on the outcomes of the most recent experiment. This updating was called "collapse" in older literature, but it is not a physical process. The typical issues people have with the theory are that:
The overwhelming majority opinion among those who study the foundations of quantum theory is that these features are simply here to stay and you have to get used to them.
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