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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
vimesey
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Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 842 of 905 (869914)
01-08-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by Percy
01-08-2020 11:28 AM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Reasonable person: "This case is a spectacularly good argument for the introduction of, at the very least, licensing for guns."

Gun nut: "No way - that's Commie big state - we want absolute freedom to do what the hell we want ! Land of the free, and all that."

Reasonable person: "So what do you propose doing about shootings by people who are not mentally competent?"

Gun nut: "Hell, they should have been picked up by mental health checks and locked up !"

Reasonable person: "So you're saying the state should be conducting regular and extensive mental health checks on all our citizens, and locking up those who aren't mentally competent ?"

Gun nut: "fzzbt bzzzt - DOES NOT COMPUTE - fzzbt bzzzt"


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Percy, posted 01-08-2020 11:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 843 of 905 (869993)
01-10-2020 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by Percy
01-08-2020 11:28 AM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Licensing that requires periodic renewal, say every five years just like for a driver's license, would have caught this man's problems years ago. Gun licensing should be required in all 50 states and all territories.

How would you propose going about enforcing it when the people enforcing the law aren't armed either? Laws are useless without enforcement.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Percy, posted 01-08-2020 11:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by Theodoric, posted 01-10-2020 1:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 846 by Percy, posted 01-26-2020 8:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 844 of 905 (869994)
01-10-2020 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Hyroglyphx
01-10-2020 1:01 PM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Are you saying that gun owners can only be licensed under force of arms?
If a person needs to have armed law enforcement to force them to get a license , then that is pretty good evidence they should not be able to have a gun.

Edited by Theodoric, : Last word changed from license


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-10-2020 1:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by ringo, posted 01-11-2020 11:35 AM Theodoric has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 845 of 905 (870069)
01-11-2020 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 844 by Theodoric
01-10-2020 1:48 PM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Theodoric writes:

Are you saying that gun owners can only be licensed under force of arms?


There's that "law-abiding gun owners" thing again - They'll obey any law but that one.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Theodoric, posted 01-10-2020 1:48 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by Theodoric, posted 01-27-2020 8:51 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 846 of 905 (870962)
01-26-2020 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Hyroglyphx
01-10-2020 1:01 PM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Just noticed your message.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Licensing that requires periodic renewal, say every five years just like for a driver's license, would have caught this man's problems years ago. Gun licensing should be required in all 50 states and all territories.

How would you propose going about enforcing it when the people enforcing the law aren't armed either? Laws are useless without enforcement.

You've asked me pretty much the same question at least several times. Do you really not recall?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-10-2020 1:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 847 of 905 (870976)
01-27-2020 8:21 AM


Current stats
Currently over seventeen million US citizens are already licensed to Conceal Carry firearms in the US. There are also fourteen Permitless Carry States. The statistics on crimes committed by those who hold a license to carry are also interesting. Between 2005 and 2007 an average of only 703 crimes of ALL types were committed by those holding a license to carry which is about six times less that the average for police officers committing crimes.

Source

Edited by jar, : add link to source


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 848 of 905 (870977)
01-27-2020 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 845 by ringo
01-11-2020 11:35 AM


Re: Licenses Should be Required of All Guns Owners
Kind of telling that I never did get an answer.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by ringo, posted 01-11-2020 11:35 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 849 of 905 (885965)
04-30-2021 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 839 by Percy
12-19-2019 9:14 AM


Re: What We Know About Gun Violence
Percy writes:

About suicide the article says that 60% of gun deaths are suicide, which we already knew, but it also says something that is undoubtedly true and that has been said here but been disputed: suicide is often an impulsive spur-of-the-moment act, and guns are far more effective as a means of suicide than any other method. Only 13% of suicide attempts succeed, unless the method was a gun, in which case the success rate is 90%. The majority of people who make a failed suicide attempt rarely make a second attempt.

I said the above about suicide a couple years ago, but I've since discovered that it's actually an even more settled issue than I thought. The widespread belief that people who comment suicide will just try it again if prevented is profoundly false. The relevant terms from the literature are coupling and displacement.

Displacement is the theory that those who attempt suicide and fail or are prevented will simply go on to find another time and/or means. The attempt at suicide is simply displaced from one means to another. This turns out to be mostly false.

Coupling is suicide due to a confluence of circumstances, usually depression and/or despair combined with a simple and effective means like a gun or a high bridge (e.g., Golden Gate). There's also an impulsive aspect to suicide. 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt do not eventually die by a subsequent suicide attempt.

That coupling accurately describes suicide means that reducing the easy availability of guns would greatly reduce suicides. In 2018 half of all suicides were by guns, about 24,000 people. If guns didn't exist then total suicides in the US would drop by about 40%. There would be around 20,000 fewer suicides.

The irony about guns is that the price of their risks and dangers is borne most by those who love them most and are most determined to keep them.

I got to thinking about gun suicides again when I saw this article in today's Washington Post: Walmart sold a gun to an employee with a history of mental illness, lawsuit says. He killed himself two hours later.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by Percy, posted 12-19-2019 9:14 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 850 of 905 (886205)
05-10-2021 7:21 AM


Big Guns
7 people dead in Colorado birthday party shooting, reports Yahoo!News. Six dead! Everyone the gunman shot died. How is that possible? Is he some kind of crack shot, putting bullet after bullet straight through the heart or brain?

No article is reporting the type of weapon yet, but I'm betting on an AR-15 style weapon, the kind that creates horrific wounds wherever it hits and that can accommodate high capacity magazines. Surviving a hit anywhere but the extremities from such a weapon is rare.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2021 8:04 AM Percy has responded
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 05-10-2021 7:24 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16820
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 851 of 905 (886206)
05-10-2021 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Percy
05-10-2021 7:21 AM


Re: Big Guns
It doesn’t say that anyone was killed with a single shot. One person - perhaps the shooter - survived long enough to be taken to hospital. Details are lacking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Percy, posted 05-10-2021 7:21 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 852 by Percy, posted 05-10-2021 8:45 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 852 of 905 (886207)
05-10-2021 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 851 by PaulK
05-10-2021 8:04 AM


Re: Big Guns
One of the missing details was the type of weapon, but when everyone or almost everyone hit dies, that usually means an AR-15 style weapon. These weapons are too dangerous to be in public hands.

To give an idea of the contrast in lethality, Isaiah Brown was shot 10 times by a Virginia sheriff's deputy and survived in critical condition (Black man shot 10 times by Virginia sheriff's deputy who had given him a ride an hour earlier, family says). As of a few days ago he was still in very critical condition. The deputy is very unlikely to have had an AR-15 style weapon, for two reasons: 1) Isaiah Brown survived; 2) AR-15 style weapons are not typically carried by law enforcement on normal duty.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2021 8:04 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 853 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2021 8:52 AM Percy has responded
 Message 854 by jar, posted 05-10-2021 11:54 AM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16820
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 853 of 905 (886208)
05-10-2021 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 852 by Percy
05-10-2021 8:45 AM


Re: Big Guns
Or he shot them in the head after they were down. We just don’t know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 852 by Percy, posted 05-10-2021 8:45 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 854 of 905 (886210)
05-10-2021 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 852 by Percy
05-10-2021 8:45 AM


Re: Big Guns
Percy writes:

One of the missing details was the type of weapon, but when everyone or almost everyone hit dies, that usually means an AR-15 style weapon. These weapons are too dangerous to be in public hands.

Now that's just showing your utter ********* Percy. Do you even know what an AR-15 style weapon is?


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 852 by Percy, posted 05-10-2021 8:45 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
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Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 855 of 905 (886211)
05-10-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by jar
05-10-2021 11:54 AM


Re: Big Guns
While not a gun afficionado and informed owner such as you are, Percy has no doubt seen many articles and news videos on these exact weapons.

As ballistics experts explain how an AR-15 bullet could shatter bone and destroy organs, doctors push for civilians to become first responders.

Sixty minutes made this one.

I know how you want to argue that no guns should be banned, but explain to us why a 9mm couldn't achieve the same level of whatever it is you wanted from a gun?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 4558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 856 of 905 (886213)
05-10-2021 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Phat
05-10-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Big Guns
Ditto, not a gun afficionado, but I've studied it a bit.

"Slug throwers" (sci-fi term for these kinetic-energy weapons) impart a packet of kinetic energy (K) to their targets:


K = mv2

In the MKS system (meter-kilogram-second) K is measured in joules:
          1 joule = 1 kg·m2·sec-2


To calculate and compare the K of different firearms, you need to know two properties: muzzle velocity and mass of the projectile. Here are a few examples (using MKS):

  • Walther PPK ("Polizeipistole, Kriminal", police detective pistol made popular by James Bond)

    Muzzle velocity -- 970 fps (295.656 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x17mm (6.18 g = 0.00618 kg)
    K = 0.00618 kg × (295.656 mps)2 = 540.2 joules

  • Beretta M9 (adopted by US military)

    Muzzle velocity -- 1155 fps (352.044 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x19mm (7.49 g = 0.00749 kg)
    K = 0.00749 kg × (352.044 mps)2 = 928.273 joules

  • M16A1

    Muzzle velocity -- 3280 fps (999.744 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (999.744 mps)2 = 3648.13 joules

  • AR 15

    Muzzle velocity -- 2700 fps (822.96 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (822.96 mps)2 = 2472 joules

Even though the AR 15's slugs are about half the mass of the sidearms' slugs, the kinetic energy they impart is about 3 times greater because of their much higher velocity; ideally, with slugs of the same mass when you triple their velocity you increase their kinetic energy by a factor of nine.

Another effect of the much higher velocity is what we saw in the video when the AR round ripped through the ballistic gelatin. I think I've heard that referred to as cavitation, but it's caused by the shock wave which would be much less for a slower projectile.

I've also heard over the years that an M16 round will tumble, especially when it enters the body, thus doing much more damage than a sidearm round would.

On the radio a few months ago the expert being interviewed described the differences in effect and had a scale for comparing the lethality/damage imparted by different firearms. The AR15 rated considerable higher on that scale than a 9mm sidearm.

 
As to Percy's original question/comment, I've only heard radio reports of that incident and from what I heard I would assume that a sidearm had been used instead of an AR15.

It was in an enclosed area, which would have placed him in close proximity with his intended victims. A long gun is a better choice when there's some distance between you and your target; if they are close enough to close distance to you, they would have a chance of disarming you. All they need to do to neutralize you as an immediate threat would be to wrestle the muzzle into a neutral direction. Doing that when you're armed with a sidearm would be much more difficult.

So I would think that if the gunman had done any amount of planning, he would have chosen to use a sidearm. Just my own guess.

 

 
On the subject of "slug throwers", in the armory of Burg Eltz on the Mosel I saw something I had never known even existed. Laid out there with the other medieval weaponry was a row of handheld catapults. They had an arm and bucket and some kind of spring to throw the arm and its payload (eg, a rock you picked up) forward when you release it, like your typical catapult. I never knew any such thing existed.

At the same castle they also had about a dozen functional miniature cannons with barrels up to a foot or two long. The guide explained that traveling armament salesmen would take those with him to demonstrate how the real thing would look and work as well as to demonstrate the quality of their craftmanship. And if you put in an order for cannons, you could keep one of the miniatures of the model you ordered. Hence the castle's collection.


This message is a reply to:
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