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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1386 of 1406 (883334)
11-29-2020 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1385 by NosyNed
11-29-2020 9:53 AM


Re: Paying for it
You have a point, Ned.

As I review this topic, I want to steer it back to its intial premise regarding Gods All Knowingness, human responsibility, and the responsibility shared.

Ostensibly we are co-laborers with Christ on this planet and one would wonder if He favored Green Newe Deals over continued burning of fossil fuels. And I would agree that Yes, Jesus would favor a green new deal.

Ned makes sense in pointing out the cost benefits and in a big picture context, God likely would urge us to try and help each other globally rather than individually and selfishly.

As a conservative l;leaning believer, I would of course be somewhat concerned with the politics behind these philosophies.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2020 9:53 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1387 of 1406 (885996)
05-01-2021 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1080 by jar
08-16-2020 3:41 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
jar writes:

If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect.

You simply cannot have it any other way.

The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market.

Nothing matters in this issue but what god does.

I never really felt comfortable with this argument. After all, who are you or I to judge God as being evil and unworthy of worship simply because He knows that so and so will fail at life 101 and will at some point in their future face judgement accordingly? I think I'll rephrase this question once again. I dont really like being put on the spot with your questions, for these are things I cannot know. Perhaps your intention was to show me that how I perceive God may be in error. So to begin....
jar writes:

he issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market.

Fair enough. Let me thus rephrase your question back to you and add some qualifiers.

IF GOD is the Creator of all seen and unseen and is sovereign over all matter living or mineral (non-animal and non-vegetable) and
IF GOD is one basic character in the New Testament and
IF GOD is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and
IF GOD is in Communion with the Human animal here on the third rock from the Sun, exemplified through His Son Jesus Christ and
IF we humans in this forum are discussing Free Will vs Omniscience and
IF Jar acknowledges that when he says

If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell ...
he means if GOD and not "if the god" since by agreement we are referring to the Creator of all seen and unseen... and
IF the Creator of all seen and unseen is commonly the God that we both are in common agreement reverently discussing.....
THEN
1: IF GOD has foreknowledge and is outside of time and free willed decision making which humans do during their finite lives here on Earth and
IF Some humans will be sheep and some humans will be goats (as implied by scripture) does it matter WHEN GOD knows and judges them?

If so, that knocks foreknowledge out of the equation. GOD simply does not know until GOD judges.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 3:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1388 by ringo, posted 05-01-2021 2:22 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1389 by jar, posted 05-01-2021 2:39 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1390 of 1406 (886002)
05-02-2021 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1389 by jar
05-01-2021 2:39 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Dont call me stupid. I'll take you on in an IQ test anytime, old man.

My point is this:

How is God limited by time?

Correction: How is the GOD YOU market limited by time?

I can accept that God does not fore-knowingly judge nor condemn us to damnation or separation.

Im not sure what I fail to see. Perhaps we have different ideas as to What Gods role is.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1389 by jar, posted 05-01-2021 2:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1392 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 6:29 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1396 by anglagard, posted 05-02-2021 7:02 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1391 of 1406 (886003)
05-02-2021 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1388 by ringo
05-01-2021 2:22 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
We have had the knowledge of good and evil since Adam and Eve. Case closed.
Who put the tree in the Garden? Who planted it?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1388 by ringo, posted 05-01-2021 2:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1395 by dwise1, posted 05-02-2021 6:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1400 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 10:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1393 of 1406 (886007)
05-02-2021 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1392 by jar
05-02-2021 6:29 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
If so, what I refuse to consider is how you perceive God vs how I perceive God. I actually believe in a supernatural perfect and powerful God. You apparantly believe in a God that represents a human caricature and who teaches us by our correcting and modifying Him. (Or Her. or It.)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1392 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 6:29 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1397 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 7:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1394 of 1406 (886008)
05-02-2021 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1392 by jar
05-02-2021 6:29 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
jar writes:

You have no point and it is not that you fail to see; it is that you refuse to see.

Is there a time before something is created and after something is created?

It is true that im tired...probably going back to bed soon. I'll argue later. Also I think the word caricature is not precisely the word I had in mind.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1392 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 6:29 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1399 of 1406 (886014)
05-02-2021 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1398 by jar
05-02-2021 7:24 AM


Re: "Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
jar writes:

Is there a time before something is created and after something is created?

yes, of course. Even if God was "in time" as a past, present, and future type of a Deity, the very universe that we all live in has a beginning and an ending, as do all life that we currently know. It would make little sense for God to foreknow everything about everyone's destinies that have not even occurred yet.

So if you now were to ask me the questions you did earlier in this topic, my answers will have changed. Let me bring them up.

jar writes:

Do you even know what "all that is, seen and unseen" includes? All that is. Good, bad, sad, happy. All that is.

OK, I get that. Even if it were true that we could blame satan rather than GOD,(assuming that rabbit trail of dogma to be plausible) GOD would still have foreknown that one of His arch angels would rebel and that a war would break out in Heaven, and that Lucifer the light bearer would become satan the tester. (let me work out my thought process through what i'm saying)

One could argue (if they wished to argue) that Lucifer was given the freedom to choose to rebel, but IF GOD created Lucifer with the ability to rebel and GOD foreknew that Lucifer would become satan, GOD is still responsible.

You once argued that GOD is complete. Not merely Good, as I thought I believed. I never liked your theories, because I couldnt blame satan and I couldnt blame GOD for how my life turned out. Thus, you proved to have a good argument against Divine Foreknowledge. My only objection is that it puts limits on the God I was sold. Comments?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1398 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 7:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 10:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1402 of 1406 (886017)
05-02-2021 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1396 by anglagard
05-02-2021 7:02 AM


Re: "Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
I just get mad when he continually calls me stupid and unwilling to learn.

For the sake of this argument, I will "throw God (as marketed to me) away", but it does take practice.

dwise1 brought up the observation that many of the Biblical Creationists believed in a magical and thoroughly supernatural God and would abandon all rational thought in order to shoehorn their belief into education.

In fact, as I browse the archives of our recent topics I see some comments that I never saw before.

Percy writes:

The only things worth saying to Lennox and 90% of the world are all dismissive, like that they're all wrong, mostly for sheer silliness, including that they can't all be right. They often respond that the differences are minor, but classical physics crumbled due to small anomalies like black body radiation. Upon such tiny points is true reality built. There's no reconciliation between Mormonism, Moonies, Heaven's Gate, Jonesboro (to mention a couple cults), Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity and all the rest. They all prove only one thing: most human beings have a need to believe in a power greater than ourselves.

What can you really say to people like Mike the Whiz and RobertLeva and Phat, especially Phat whose intensity of belief and inarticulation only increase with increased torture at the hands of his savior? Mike the Whiz does hit and runs (he posted to his There are easy creationist answers to problems evolutionists pose thread six times the day he started it and not once in the month since), so you can't even have a discussion with him. RobertLeva was unsubstantive over five days and then did the "insult everyone and leave" dance we've seen so many times.

If believers said only "I believe" and nothing more they would be far more credible.

That makes sense,Percy. The reason that I say more is that I think out loud in essence by debating and discussing my beliefs with others. And about my in articulation. RE:
quote:
whose intensity of belief and in articulation only increase with increased torture at the hands of his savior?
I just get mad when my points are so easily dismissed. dwise1 is much kinder to me.

And i agree with Percy in that God uses all of you to challenge and sharpen my beliefs. (Or at the very least to force me to proofread my thoughts before repeating them a thousand times)

Now...as to why I disagree with jar.
{* I disagree with the notion that humans make God up. Granted we all parrot off of each other to a degree and those with the original thoughts can be questioned also. But whats so wrong with believing that GOD desires a relationship with humans? After all, we DO have a brain and an inquisitive mind.

I believe that in some of our discussions I am "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling"...not to mention an occasional bit of arrogance and hubris.

But I honestly believe that Jesus was (and is) more than a man. I like the belief that God can be supernatural at times. If I were simply stuck with other humans and an uncertain future, I would feel vulnerable. My belief in God(or at least the God I "market") gives me a feeling of safety. Bernie Sanders, green new deals, and global consensus make me feel vulnerable and mortal.

Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by anglagard, posted 05-02-2021 7:02 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1403 of 1406 (886018)
05-02-2021 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1400 by ringo
05-02-2021 10:38 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes:

The point is that Adam and Eve did have the knowledge of good and evil and they supposedly passed it down to us - so we are well qualified to judge whether God is good or evil.

So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve.

Right?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1400 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 10:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1404 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 11:46 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1405 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 2:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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