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Author
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Topic: Free will vs Omniscience
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 1087 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: 03-18-2006
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Message 1396 of 1444 (886010)
05-02-2021 7:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 1390 by Phat
05-02-2021 2:38 AM
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"Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
Phat writes: Dont call me stupid. I'll take you on in an IQ test anytime, old man. My opening bid is $10 on jar, any takers? I am willing to go quite higher.
The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing. If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do. Republican = death
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1390 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 2:38 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1398 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 7:24 AM | | anglagard has not replied | | | Message 1402 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 10:57 AM | | anglagard has not replied |
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jar
Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 1397 of 1444 (886011)
05-02-2021 7:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 1393 by Phat
05-02-2021 6:36 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
No Phat, you know that is not true and has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1393 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 6:36 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: "Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
I actually have no idea what my IQ is but I did go to school with some really really smart folk and in our junior or senior year they snuck into the office at night and pulled the IQ files for all the kids in our class. They have told me that my IQ was "scary" but whether it was scary high or scary low is unknown.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1396 by anglagard, posted 05-02-2021 7:02 AM | | anglagard has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1399 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 10:13 AM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 1399 of 1444 (886014)
05-02-2021 10:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 1398 by jar
05-02-2021 7:24 AM
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Re: "Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
jar writes: Is there a time before something is created and after something is created? yes, of course. Even if God was "in time" as a past, present, and future type of a Deity, the very universe that we all live in has a beginning and an ending, as do all life that we currently know. It would make little sense for God to foreknow everything about everyone's destinies that have not even occurred yet. So if you now were to ask me the questions you did earlier in this topic, my answers will have changed. Let me bring them up.
jar writes: Do you even know what "all that is, seen and unseen" includes? All that is. Good, bad, sad, happy. All that is. OK, I get that. Even if it were true that we could blame satan rather than GOD,(assuming that rabbit trail of dogma to be plausible) GOD would still have foreknown that one of His arch angels would rebel and that a war would break out in Heaven, and that Lucifer the light bearer would become satan the tester. (let me work out my thought process through what i'm saying) One could argue (if they wished to argue) that Lucifer was given the freedom to choose to rebel, but IF GOD created Lucifer with the ability to rebel and GOD foreknew that Lucifer would become satan, GOD is still responsible. You once argued that GOD is complete. Not merely Good, as I thought I believed. I never liked your theories, because I couldnt blame satan and I couldnt blame GOD for how my life turned out. Thus, you proved to have a good argument against Divine Foreknowledge. My only objection is that it puts limits on the God I was sold. Comments?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1398 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 7:24 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1401 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 10:47 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1400 of 1444 (886015)
05-02-2021 10:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 1391 by Phat
05-02-2021 2:59 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: Who put the tree in the Garden? Who planted it?
What has that got to do with it? The point is that Adam and Eve did have the knowledge of good and evil and they supposedly passed it down to us - so we are well qualified to judge whether God is good or evil.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1391 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 2:59 AM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 1401 of 1444 (886016)
05-02-2021 10:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 1399 by Phat
05-02-2021 10:13 AM
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gotta give up one or more attributes of God if you don't what an evil God
You are still refusing to actually address the argument Phat. Satan is irrelevant. Lucifer is irrelevant. Judgement is irrelevant. The issue is "the creation". If God has foreknowledge and creates a critter that is going to hell then that God is evil. Period. Full stop. It is impossible to have a God that has foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, if anything is ever condemned to hell. But remember, there is absolutely no reason that God should not be evil.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1399 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 10:13 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Re: "Yup You Betcha" - Ballard Bitters
I just get mad when he continually calls me stupid and unwilling to learn. For the sake of this argument, I will "throw God (as marketed to me) away", but it does take practice. dwise1 brought up the observation that many of the Biblical Creationists believed in a magical and thoroughly supernatural God and would abandon all rational thought in order to shoehorn their belief into education. In fact, as I browse the archives of our recent topics I see some comments that I never saw before.
Percy writes: The only things worth saying to Lennox and 90% of the world are all dismissive, like that they're all wrong, mostly for sheer silliness, including that they can't all be right. They often respond that the differences are minor, but classical physics crumbled due to small anomalies like black body radiation. Upon such tiny points is true reality built. There's no reconciliation between Mormonism, Moonies, Heaven's Gate, Jonesboro (to mention a couple cults), Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity and all the rest. They all prove only one thing: most human beings have a need to believe in a power greater than ourselves. What can you really say to people like Mike the Whiz and RobertLeva and Phat, especially Phat whose intensity of belief and inarticulation only increase with increased torture at the hands of his savior? Mike the Whiz does hit and runs (he posted to his There are easy creationist answers to problems evolutionists pose thread six times the day he started it and not once in the month since), so you can't even have a discussion with him. RobertLeva was unsubstantive over five days and then did the "insult everyone and leave" dance we've seen so many times. If believers said only "I believe" and nothing more they would be far more credible. That makes sense,Percy. The reason that I say more is that I think out loud in essence by debating and discussing my beliefs with others. And about my in articulation. RE: quote:
whose intensity of belief and in articulation only increase with increased torture at the hands of his savior?
I just get mad when my points are so easily dismissed. dwise1 is much kinder to me. And i agree with Percy in that God uses all of you to challenge and sharpen my beliefs. (Or at the very least to force me to proofread my thoughts before repeating them a thousand times) Now...as to why I disagree with jar. {* I disagree with the notion that humans make God up. Granted we all parrot off of each other to a degree and those with the original thoughts can be questioned also. But whats so wrong with believing that GOD desires a relationship with humans? After all, we DO have a brain and an inquisitive mind. I believe that in some of our discussions I am "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling"...not to mention an occasional bit of arrogance and hubris. But I honestly believe that Jesus was (and is) more than a man. I like the belief that God can be supernatural at times. If I were simply stuck with other humans and an uncertain future, I would feel vulnerable. My belief in God(or at least the God I "market") gives me a feeling of safety. Bernie Sanders, green new deals, and global consensus make me feel vulnerable and mortal. Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1396 by anglagard, posted 05-02-2021 7:02 AM | | anglagard has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 1403 of 1444 (886018)
05-02-2021 11:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 1400 by ringo
05-02-2021 10:38 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes: The point is that Adam and Eve did have the knowledge of good and evil and they supposedly passed it down to us - so we are well qualified to judge whether God is good or evil. So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve. Right?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1400 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 10:38 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1404 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 11:46 AM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 1405 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 2:27 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 1404 of 1444 (886019)
05-02-2021 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 1403 by Phat
05-02-2021 11:04 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve. No Phat. Whom we will serve is irrelevant, immaterial, unimportant, silly, divisive, counter productive and worthless. The charge is "what will we do!"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1403 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 11:04 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1405 of 1444 (886021)
05-02-2021 2:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 1403 by Phat
05-02-2021 11:04 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve. Right?
I don't know what any of that has to do with what I said but you're missing the biggest "if" of all - if He even exists. But again, you're missing the real point: It doesn't matter whether God is good or evil. We can't do anything about that. What matters is the good and/or evil that WE do. Of course, obeying evil commands from God would be evil.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1403 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 11:04 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 846 days) Posts: 826 Joined: 05-04-2019
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Message 1406 of 1444 (886459)
05-20-2021 6:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 1401 by jar
05-02-2021 10:47 AM
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Re: gotta give up one or more attributes of God if you don't what an evil God
It all goes to show the scriptures weren't written by philosophers or logicians or scientists, they were written by people who just liked a good story. “An artist is someone who can hold two opposing viewpoints and still remain fully functional.”
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1401 by jar, posted 05-02-2021 10:47 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 1407 of 1444 (897309)
09-02-2022 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 1400 by ringo
05-02-2021 10:38 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
jar writes: It is impossible to have a God that has foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen if anything is ever condemned to hell. God is responsible only in that He allowed Hell (a place of separation from Heaven) to exist. You seem to think that if God were worth His salt, He would have eliminated any evil threats beforehand. This would not allow for free will. Take yourself and a few chosen friends. You all want to be free to do whatever it is that you want to do. Apologists would argue that you were thus lawless, not wanting to be under any law or standard. You may counter by saying that you yourselves make your own standard. In which case God is not responsible if you in fact get yourselves in a jam.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1400 by ringo, posted 05-02-2021 10:38 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 1408 of 1444 (897311)
09-02-2022 3:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 1388 by ringo
05-01-2021 2:22 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes: We have had the knowledge of good and evil since Adam and Eve. Case closed. In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right? But what of men who call good evil and evil good? Is it their own fault they got things twisted?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1388 by ringo, posted 05-01-2021 2:22 PM | | ringo has replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 6.6
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Message 1409 of 1444 (897313)
09-02-2022 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 1408 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:36 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right? Yeah, I'm afraid so, Phat. There is no one else to blame. It's all on us.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1408 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:36 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 1410 of 1444 (897317)
09-02-2022 5:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 1407 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:32 PM
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Trolling another zombie thread
Don't you think maybe you are trolling enough threads already?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1407 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:32 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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