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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
You have a point, Ned.
As I review this topic, I want to steer it back to its intial premise regarding Gods All Knowingness, human responsibility, and the responsibility shared. Ostensibly we are co-laborers with Christ on this planet and one would wonder if He favored Green Newe Deals over continued burning of fossil fuels. And I would agree that Yes, Jesus would favor a green new deal. Ned makes sense in pointing out the cost benefits and in a big picture context, God likely would urge us to try and help each other globally rather than individually and selfishly. As a conservative l;leaning believer, I would of course be somewhat concerned with the politics behind these philosophies. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
IF GOD is the Creator of all seen and unseen and is sovereign over all matter living or mineral (non-animal and non-vegetable) and
IF the Creator of all seen and unseen is commonly the God that we both are in common agreement reverently discussing..... THEN 1: IF GOD has foreknowledge and is outside of time and free willed decision making which humans do during their finite lives here on Earth and IF Some humans will be sheep and some humans will be goats (as implied by scripture) does it matter WHEN GOD knows and judges them? If so, that knocks foreknowledge out of the equation. GOD simply does not know until GOD judges. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Dont call me stupid. I'll take you on in an IQ test anytime, old man.
My point is this: How is God limited by time? Correction: How is the GOD YOU market limited by time? I can accept that God does not fore-knowingly judge nor condemn us to damnation or separation. Im not sure what I fail to see. Perhaps we have different ideas as to What Gods role is. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
If so, what I refuse to consider is how you perceive God vs how I perceive God. I actually believe in a supernatural perfect and powerful God. You apparantly believe in a God that represents a human caricature and who teaches us by our correcting and modifying Him. (Or Her. or It.)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
It is true that im tired...probably going back to bed soon. I'll argue later. Also I think the word caricature is not precisely the word I had in mind. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
So if you now were to ask me the questions you did earlier in this topic, my answers will have changed. Let me bring them up.
One could argue (if they wished to argue) that Lucifer was given the freedom to choose to rebel, but IF GOD created Lucifer with the ability to rebel and GOD foreknew that Lucifer would become satan, GOD is still responsible. You once argued that GOD is complete. Not merely Good, as I thought I believed. I never liked your theories, because I couldnt blame satan and I couldnt blame GOD for how my life turned out. Thus, you proved to have a good argument against Divine Foreknowledge. My only objection is that it puts limits on the God I was sold. Comments? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
I just get mad when he continually calls me stupid and unwilling to learn.
For the sake of this argument, I will "throw God (as marketed to me) away", but it does take practice. dwise1 brought up the observation that many of the Biblical Creationists believed in a magical and thoroughly supernatural God and would abandon all rational thought in order to shoehorn their belief into education. In fact, as I browse the archives of our recent topics I see some comments that I never saw before.
quote:I just get mad when my points are so easily dismissed. dwise1 is much kinder to me. And i agree with Percy in that God uses all of you to challenge and sharpen my beliefs. (Or at the very least to force me to proofread my thoughts before repeating them a thousand times) Now...as to why I disagree with jar. I believe that in some of our discussions I am "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling"...not to mention an occasional bit of arrogance and hubris. But I honestly believe that Jesus was (and is) more than a man. I like the belief that God can be supernatural at times. If I were simply stuck with other humans and an uncertain future, I would feel vulnerable. My belief in God(or at least the God I "market") gives me a feeling of safety. Bernie Sanders, green new deals, and global consensus make me feel vulnerable and mortal. Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 15944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Right? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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