Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9073 total)
579 online now:
Aussie, PaulK, Stile, Tangle (4 members, 575 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,237 Year: 4,349/6,534 Month: 563/900 Week: 87/182 Day: 21/38 Hour: 0/6

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who Made God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 784 of 868 (862547)
09-06-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
09-06-2019 1:36 AM


Dredge writes:

The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible....


It doesn't take much effort. You can find bunk on page one.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM Dredge has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by Phat, posted 09-06-2019 1:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 786 of 868 (862596)
09-07-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 785 by Phat
09-06-2019 1:48 PM


Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
Phat writes:

And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible.


The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible.

Phat writes:

Those who believe what hawking said about a universe who can and will spontaneously create itself from nothing" are in effect believing in a "Virgin Birth" of a universe.


Rubbish. Spontaneous creation from nothing would be a birth without a virgin.

Phat writes:

Comments?


I wish you'd just put things in your own words.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by Phat, posted 09-06-2019 1:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 790 of 868 (862633)
09-08-2019 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by Phat
09-08-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
Phat writes:

Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts?


It's pretty clear, from the inconsistencies, that that is what happened. Dictation by a flying spook fails to explain the narrative.

Phat writes:

The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact.


So does every other holy book. "This sentence is true," is not a reliable source of information.

Phat writes:

jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source...


There is no trustworthy source.

Phat writes:

... since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity....


An unbiased source is more reliable than a biased one. When assessing the Christian faith, the less Christian the better.

Phat writes:

Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible...


I have never been told that. And as I have mentioned countless times, you are the one who throws the Bible away and chooses to embrace the made-up version presented by apologists.

Phat writes:

... there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt.


You really should throw away those childish fairy tales.

Phat writes:

Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones.


I've read lots of better ones.

Phat writes:

Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available.


It is. I have it on my bookshelf. I've read it probably two dozen times, ever since I could read.

I don't read commentaries about it. Why would I?


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 798 of 868 (862877)
09-15-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by Phat
09-14-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
Phat writes:

Yet you (and ringo) think that all (or a majority of apologists) are dishonest.


Still waiting for you to roll out one who isn't.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Phat, posted 09-14-2019 4:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 2:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 09-19-2019 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 800 of 868 (862882)
09-15-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by Phat
09-15-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
Phat writes:

I need to know what you and jar define as dishonesty?


I would say somebody is dishonest if he tries to make the Bible say something it doesn't say - for example, claiming that God told the truth and the snake lied.

Phat writes:

I feed people, ringo. Fear not.


That has nothing to do with the subject of apologetics.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 803 of 868 (862887)
09-15-2019 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by Phat
09-15-2019 4:05 PM


Re: Making God Up
Phat writes:

All I'm saying is that God by definition cannot lie...


That doesn't even make sense. If He is omnipotent, how can there be things He can not do?

Phat writes:

...(why would He even need to?)


We've been through that. He might have lied to protect His children, etc.

Phat writes:

... if the snake is satan...


There's no reason to think he is. And there's a whole raft of different Satan characters that shouldn't be shoehorned into one entity anyway.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 4:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 09-16-2019 8:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 805 of 868 (862899)
09-16-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by Phat
09-16-2019 8:44 AM


Re: None Are Righteous..And Some Apologize
Phat writes:

Based on that logic, God could *even* not exist and yet exist, (since He can do anything!


No. Existing is not doing.

Try again. If God can do anything, how can He be incapable of lying?

Phat writes:

You asked me about *honest* apologists---


I did. Show us one who doesn't make up stories to nullify Genesis 3.

Phat writes:

I don't trust many of the atheist speakers because I feel that they have an ax to grind...


So you prejudge them, not based the least bit on what they say. You're doing exactly what the apoligists are doing - making up stories to fit your pre-conceived "Truth".

Phat writes:

In conclusion, I don't believe that all Christian Apologists seek to misdirect and "palm the pea" as jar asserts.


So roll out one who isn't. You always avoid discussing what they say.

Phat writes:

Oh, and about one who I think is honest as the day is long? Vince Vitale.


What does he say about Genesis 3?

Phat writes:

You wouldnt even give them an opportunity to present a case.


That's blatantly false. I've been asking you and asking you to present their case.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 09-16-2019 8:44 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 853 of 868 (863083)
09-19-2019 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 851 by Phat
09-19-2019 4:53 PM


Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

the quality of the apologetic arguments is not dependent on the character flaws.


If the apologetics are high-quality, why do you keep refusing to discuss them with us?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by Phat, posted 09-19-2019 4:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 11:22 AM ringo has replied
 Message 860 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 1:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 857 of 868 (863122)
09-20-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 847 by Phat
09-19-2019 2:56 PM


Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

Cameron McAllister is another of the RZIM group that provides a stimulating an honest cultural commentary on the times and beliefs which we all share and individually hold.


"Making Sense of the Old Testament" is kind of a bad way to start. It assumes that the Old Testament will "make sense" if you look at it "correctly". That's the beginning of dishonesty right there.

Stop spamming us with these links and actually bring the arguments here.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 09-19-2019 2:56 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 858 of 868 (863123)
09-20-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Phat
09-20-2019 11:22 AM


Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

The main reason is that I am only now understanding and absorbing the arguments in order to articulate the response which I feel.


Well, you've absorbed enough to decide that they're "high quality". That should be enough to articulate a response.

Or does "high quality" just mean they tell you what you want to hear?

Phat writes:

For another, there are no transcripts from which to quote.


If there's nothing to quote, you don't need to quote. Use your own words.

Phat writes:

I can quote scripture, but you have your own preconceived "belief" as to what it means and you even have the audacity to *show* believers where they are wrong.


There's no belief and no audacity. The scripture says what it says. If you want to claim that it doesn't mean what it says, you need something extraordinary to back up that claim. The onus is on you to pony up the backup.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 11:22 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 862 of 868 (863135)
09-20-2019 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 860 by Phat
09-20-2019 1:22 PM


Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

You claim that the characters are only found in the book and have no life of their own outside of the book.


How is that an "overall interpretation"? It's an obvious fact - and one that applies to a lot of books.

Phat writes:

The book itself says that the characters pre-existed the book...


You can't use the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself....

Phat writes:

Did it ever occur to you that this is not simply another science experiment.?


No. Why would you suggest that it isn't?

Phat writes:

You use the scriptures to point out how they support your secular belief in a government of by and for the people that helps its own.


You have it backwards. I can see what works. The people have to help each other if there's going to be any help because your God is flat-out not doing it. I could see that whether or not I had ever heard of the Bible.

Phat writes:

I'm not sure why you are an atheist, but I will again ask.


I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as agnostic.

My reasoning is similar to your reasoning about the Tooth Fairy: it's just a silly idea. And the idiotic theology that you spout doesn't make it any less silly.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 860 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 1:22 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 868 of 868 (886036)
05-03-2021 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by Phat
05-03-2021 9:43 AM


Re: So What About Jesus?
Phat writes:

...but how you can claim to be a Christian when the very Christ on whom the name is based is said by you to be a human creation?


That's what I keep asking you. You dismiss the Bible as a dusty old book and you deny what the closest thing to an objective version of Christ said. It's blindingly obvious that YOUR version of Christ is made up by you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 05-03-2021 9:43 AM Phat has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022