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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 391 (885970)
04-30-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
04-30-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up.

Will you stop saying that!The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up. It is simply crazy. Besides, why are only we called to do it? Thats not very fair is it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by AZPaul3, posted 04-30-2021 1:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 378 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2021 1:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 2:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6225
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 377 of 391 (885973)
04-30-2021 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Phat
04-30-2021 12:52 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Besides, why are only we called to do it? Thats not very fair is it.

Phat! Wake up! That's a creed of your chosen religion. You embrace a religion or you leave it.

Cafeteria christianity? Makes belief easy. Just another team built in your image to root for on Sunday.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 378 of 391 (885974)
04-30-2021 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Phat
04-30-2021 12:52 PM


Read the Book(s)
quote:
You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up.

Phat writes:

Will you stop saying that!

If you want BLM to disappear, stop shooting unarmed minorities under no pretense. If you want Antifa to disappear, stop being a fascist. If you want Ringo, jar and I to stop criticizing you concerning your severely limited understanding of Christianity, read the Bible.

The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up. It is simply crazy. Besides, why are only we called to do it? Thats not very fair is it.

Obviously, to those who know, such as jar and Ringo, you have not read nor understand Matthew. Quotes like this are a dead giveaway.

Look, Christianity is your self-proclaimed religion, don't you think it is incumbent on any believer to *actually* know what they proclaim to believe in?


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-30-2021 3:01 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 379 of 391 (885975)
04-30-2021 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Phat
04-30-2021 12:39 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

I got saved the first month before I ever even learned the buzzwords and catchphrases.


I don't believe it. You grew up in a society that is so permeated with the buzzwords and catchphrases that you'd have to be deaf and blind not to know them. Did you celebrate Christmas? Did you ever hear Joy to the World? I think you learned from a very early age to associate Jesus with joy.

Phat writes:

And I felt as if she had too much pride and certainty that she and she alone was right about things. Do I come across the same way?


You refuse to consider the possibility that you could be wrong about the "voices". How is that different from Faith?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 380 of 391 (885976)
04-30-2021 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Phat
04-30-2021 12:52 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up.


Will you stop saying that!

No, I won't. It's the truth. Will you ever stop claiming that your "communion" trumps the dusty old book?

Phat writes:

The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up.


You haven't challenged me on that. It's what the Bible says. All you're doing is denying Jesus.

Phat writes:

It is simply crazy.


It's crazy if you don't trust God. But as I have pointed out before, there are people who do it. Jesus' disciples did it. The lady with two mites did it. The early church did it (Ananias and Sapphira). Even before Jesus, the widow who fed Elijah did it. Monastic communities have always done it. Even other religions such as Buddhists do it.

So please stop saying it can't be done.

Phat writes:

Besides, why are only we called to do it?


Because Jesus told you to. Why do you need more reason than that?

Because you supposedly believe that God will take care of you.

Phat writes:

Thats not very fair is it.


Of course not. Who promised you a rose garden?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33662
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 381 of 391 (885977)
04-30-2021 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by anglagard
04-30-2021 1:40 PM


Re: Read the Book(s)
There are lots of different Jesus' in the Bible; Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels and Jesus of John and Jesus as found in the rantings from Patmos and Jesus before his prophesy failed and Jesus reworked after the failed prophesy and beer run Jesus and low country bowl Jesus on the beach, Jesus the vandal causing a riot in the synagogue ...

But there is a common theme throughout all the different Jesus' created by the story tellers and that is that there is no Jesus that tells his crew that all will be easy and pleasant and that they will all live lives filled with joy and have a happy ending.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2021 1:40 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Phat, posted 01-16-2022 4:07 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4048
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 382 of 391 (886064)
05-04-2021 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by AZPaul3
04-28-2021 10:13 PM


Re: Charismatic Chaos Revisited
AZPaul3 writes:

But, I submit to you, the decision is being made in a fact-based way. We are talking a fact-based decision model. Or should be if you care to make a more successful decision. As in one that actually works out since it was planned to foster its own success.

Fully agreed.

Both methods are "fact based."

An evidence-based fact takes into account objective evidence (here, one should ensure it is "objective" and not their own opinion.)
A feelings-based fact takes into account subjective feelings (here, one should ensure it is their own opinion of their own feelings and not objective evidence of other people's feelings - even if those others are a majority)

They are both facts, but they use different methodology to obtain them.

Evidence facts - obtained through peer-reviewed scientific method, if possible.
Feelings facts - obtained through personal opinion of your own feelings, if possible.

Two extremely different (even opposite?) methods... which is why I'm making the distinction between "evidence-facts" and "feelings-facts" instead of just saying they are both "fact-based" methods.

And, no, I do not recognize a feelings-based decision method using any facts at all. As soon as some pesky fact (other than the fact that you got the feels) pops up it poisons everything and crushes it down like a black hole into a fact-based method. Instant collapse.

If I feel happy, and I tell you I'm happy - it is a fact that I'm happy (as long as I'm not lying.)
Regardless of however many endorphins you may or may not be able to accurately measure in my system.

(Number of endorphins is made up because I don't know the proper measurement to use or how much anyway.)
If "the average person" requires 100 endorphins to call themselves happy - it does not mean someone is not happy if they only have 5 endorphins.
If the person with 5 endorphins says they are sad - then they can possibly be classified as "an average person."
If the person with 5 endorphins says they are happy - then they are happy, and simply classified as "not an average person."

Feelings are feelings.
And the person holding them, and judging them is the be-all and end-all judge.
The result of that personal judgement is a fact.
-taking into account that they are a reasonable, honest person.

Anything less ends up with people telling other people how they feel.
Which is, simply, ridiculous.

Edited by Stile, : Added final two sentences


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2021 10:13 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 391 (891090)
01-16-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by dwise1
03-12-2021 5:39 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
dwise1 writes:

Correctness would of course depend on getting things right, so being false would be the opposite, namely getting things wrong. I would think that we can all agree to that.

But are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything right in order to qualify as "correct"? Or can it get some things right and also some things wrong and still qualify as "correct"?

By the same token, are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything wrong in order to qualify as "false"? Or can it get some things wrong but still get some things right (however few) and still qualify as "false"?

Until we can agree on some kind of standards to proper rate religions, then Phat's claim (or hypothetical scenario) of "out of many religions only one is correct" is so meaningless as to not even come within sight of becoming an assertion.

So to start with, we have to have some sort of consensus on what *is* right and what *is* wrong.
Beyond that, my initial assertion would claim that there is One GOD and that Jesus among humans was the one closest to (or identical to) His basic nature and code of ethics.
One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by dwise1, posted 03-12-2021 5:39 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2022 4:25 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 386 by jar, posted 01-16-2022 4:43 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-17-2022 11:16 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 388 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2022 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 391 (891091)
01-16-2022 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by jar
04-30-2021 3:01 PM


Re: Read the Book(s)
I must concede my arguments. You and ringo are basically correct in that Jesus, the character in the book (if not in reality) does say that the godly in Christ will suffer. Nothing is going to be easy...any easier than it was for all of the Apostles martyred for their faith.

It is humbling to think that a bunch of atheists and critical thinkers could see this even while saying that there is no evidence for God.

|And I have to fight off the envy that I MUST do it while *you* don't have to give it all up.

My faith is being challenged and tested these days.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-30-2021 3:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8332
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 385 of 391 (891092)
01-16-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
01-16-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
By-and-large people agree on what is right and wrong - in a moral sense.

People don't agree which of our many gods are 'right'. People all agree that everyone else's god is wrong.

Generally speaking, anyone reading the Old Testament with no prior assumptions or knowledge would say that the god in that story had the temperament and morality of a narcissistic, psychotic mass murderer. And therefore 'wrong'.

So I'm not sure what you mean by 'right'.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 01-16-2022 4:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33662
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 386 of 391 (891093)
01-16-2022 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
01-16-2022 4:01 PM


Why do You Think The Way You Do?
Phat writes:

One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans.

Again Phat, that is NOT what the Bible says or shows, and we have covered this point repeatedly over the years.

The God described in Genesis 2&3 creates humans and does not give them the ability to know right from wrong and then punishes them when they fail to know what is right or wrong.

The God in Exodus tells the Pharoah to let His people go and then when the Pharoah agrees the God changes his mind and punishes him for the decision the God made him make.

The God doing a walk about to find out if the rumors of Sodom and Gamorrah were true needs to be lectured on morality by a human.

The God in the book of Job instructs Satan to kill Job's children and inflict Job with ills and loss just to settle a bet.

Come on. Any human that showed similar morals would be considered a monster.

AbE:

But what specifically does the Bible say related to whether God or Man has the better grasp of what morality should entail?

God writes:

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : missing do

Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Edited by jar, : fix grammur

Edited by jar, : + book of


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 387 of 391 (891103)
01-17-2022 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
01-16-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Phat writes:

One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans.


And humans have a better grasp of what morality should entail than do cows? A cow would think it's immoral to eat cows.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 01-16-2022 4:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7150
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 388 of 391 (891108)
01-17-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
01-16-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans.

All you have and all you have ever had since you started spewing your rightwing christianist dogma is assumptions.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 01-16-2022 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-18-2022 9:49 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 389 of 391 (891127)
01-18-2022 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Theodoric
01-17-2022 12:03 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Topic Starter from Message 1
quote:
For those of you who pray and who believe that you are having a conversation with God (an entity that you believe is living and aware and that is outside of your conscience, strictly speaking)
perhaps you could share some of the dynamics of the prayers, mantras, and conversations. I realize that for some of us this is an important and personal thing, so let's keep the jokes limited to ourselves.
Note that I started this topic in 2006, when I was a bit saner than my frazzled old self is currently. Times are different now in that I am a bit less spiritual and a bit more reactive and snippy due to changes in the world-at-large, the demise of the United States (My Uncle Sam who I always counted on to take care of me rather than becoming a liberal stoolie trying to please all of the people globally as well as nationally) and my own aging and inability to take care of myself as well as I need to do. So let's review the questions I originally asked, my answers to them, and my reactions throughout this topic to my EvC foils.
So....during prayer and meditation...
  • What do you ask and/or talk about? I am as honest as I can be with myself when praying. I realize that if I am not careful I will drift off and ask God(Jesus) to help "me me me" and my conscience usually kicks in and changes my requests and introspections more towards how I can help others.
  • Do you hear answers or feel inner confirmation in any way? God does not simply reply to me through an inner audible voice. All I can really say is that the more that I pray, the more I realize how much more I need to do as an individual and member of a community at large.
  • Does the action of communication with God change you in any way? I would say that prayer always leads me towards change, but I find myself in an inner conflict between what my flesh wants and what my inner spirit knows I need to do. Note that I answered these questions a bit differently in 2006. Message 3

    I think that my answers were more introspective then than they are now. I am old and scared. If anything, my prayers are more humble now than they were in 2006, even though my outer personality is more selfish and desperate.

    One question that I have currently for Theodoric and his charge that my entire inner and outer personality is based on assumptions is how does this differ from anybody else? Facts can only take you so far. Also, I try and separate my spiritual beliefs from carnal Republican philosophies.

    EvC helps me to confront what I don't like to confront...namely selfishness, greed, irrational hatred, or bitterness towards things that I don't consider fair or right.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 388 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2022 12:03 PM Theodoric has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 390 by nwr, posted 01-18-2022 10:30 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 391 by Theodoric, posted 01-18-2022 11:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5887
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 7.7


    (2)
    Message 390 of 391 (891129)
    01-18-2022 10:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
    01-18-2022 9:49 AM


    Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
    One question that I have currently for Theodoric and his charge that my entire inner and outer personality is based on assumptions is how does this differ from anybody else? Facts can only take you so far.

    I am not Theodoric, so I'll answer for myself.

    Yes, it could be said that my life is based on assumptions. But they are assumptions that have been well tested.

    Actually, I don't really think my life is based on assumptions. My life is based on practices that have turned out to work. We often describe that in terms of beliefs and assumptions, but the belief story seems completely wrong. When a child tries to walk, she does not make assumptions about the world or about whether the ground is solid. She just tries to walk. And if she falls, then she tries again in a different way. Eventually she become proficient in walk. But she learned that through trial and error, not through beliefs and assumptions.

    With religion, you try out prayer. And it doesn't work. But, because of the indoctrination, you keep trying instead of moving on to try something else.


    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
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