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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 13 of 126 (886168)
05-09-2021 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
05-09-2021 6:41 AM


Phat writes:

There are a few demons operating in these anti-theists.


Does it ever occur to you how rude it is to tell people they're demon-possesed?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 05-09-2021 6:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 11:17 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 05-09-2021 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 21 of 126 (886195)
05-09-2021 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
05-09-2021 3:28 PM


Re: The Correct Term is Oppression, not Possession.
Phat writes:

No more rude than it is for you to mock my capability to judge something as real or fake.


When I mock your ability to judge something as real or fake, I have evidence.

Phat writes:

Only when I experience it first hand do I even attempt to explain it.


"Demons" is not an attempt to explain anything. It's an excuse for not bothering to look for real explanations.

Phat writes:

And just because my explanation isn't outright rejection based on known evidence makes my assessment no less valid than yours.


Sure it does. You're rejecting the evidence that explains your experiences. Rejecting evidence is always invalid.

Phat writes:

One key giveaway regarding oppression is an innate hatred of Jesus Christ...


Which I don't have. I have more respect than you do for His words as recorded in the Bible.

Phat writes:

... or disdain for His necessity.


It isn't "disdain". It's recognition that He isn't necessary. His message is beneficial, if not indispensible. He himself is no more necessary than any of the other messengers who bring the same message.

Phat writes:

An anti theist sees the very idea of God incarnate as laughable yet also a very real threat to social progress.


Any rational person sees that. Theists can be rational.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 05-09-2021 3:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 55 of 126 (886493)
05-22-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:10 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

... humanists are in love with the idea that we determine our destiny and that the collective majority can and will rule.


As I have told you many times, we are not "in love" with the idea - we're stuck with the idea. It isn't that we "can" rule - we HAVE to rule because there's nobody to do it for us.

Phat writes:

And ringo will use the words of Jesus as an excuse why we should all become poorer.


And there you go, slamming Jesus again.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 56 of 126 (886494)
05-22-2021 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Raphael
05-21-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Raphael writes:

If you were on an abandoned island and you never heard of any religion, would the position you come to naturally be atheism?


The default is that if they never heard of leprechauns, most people would not make them up.

Raphael writes:

If yes; how would you test or prove such a thing?


Quite easily. If my leprechaun traps are empty, I don't need to concern myself with leprechauns.

Raphael writes:

In reality, you cannot and couldn't, therefore this would merely be a faith decision on your part.


See above. There is no need for faith when we have observations.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Raphael, posted 05-21-2021 10:21 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 71 of 126 (886536)
05-23-2021 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Raphael
05-22-2021 9:46 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Raphael writes:

People make up all sorts of things though. I think you are underestimating the human imagination


So you're admitting that gods are made up. And don't miss the plural there. A lot of gods have been made up, along with leprechauns, fairies, bigfeet, etc. People making things up is not an argument for the existence of those things.

Raphael writes:

1) How would one build a leprechaun trap if one has no data on leprechauns?


The same way that believers "confirm" the existence of their particular gods - by making up the data.

Raphael writes:

2) Consider after building said trap, how would one even know if their trap (test) was sufficient to trap (test for) leprechauns?


See above. The victory conditions are made up by the individual believers.

Raphael writes:

I trust observations. However, in this case, we have no way of knowing if our tests are even able to test what we are trying to test.


We know what we know. The mistake you make is adding in a lot of things that you don't know.

Raphael writes:

In conclusion, we remain leprechaun agnostics, never really knowing whether or not they are real, though an intellectually honest person would probably remain open to the possibility.


Bingo. That's exactly my stance on the existence of gods. Of course, I can't speak for any other atheists because we have no organization, no doctrines and no articles of faith.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:46 PM Raphael has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 72 of 126 (886537)
05-23-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
05-23-2021 6:40 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Why is God not plainly visible to everybody?


Because he isn't plainly visible to anybody.

Edited by ringo, : Sbelling.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 05-23-2021 6:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 87 of 126 (886777)
06-06-2021 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
06-06-2021 2:37 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

I can pray and talk with God and not feel the slightest bit weird or fantasy-driven about it. I can agree with you that there is no way to objectively prove it to you. I can readily identify with other believers, who can all do it and can all agree that it works. We can describe what God "says" or imparts into us with no dissonance whatsoever.


That's dishonest. Mormons, Pastafarians, etc. can pray and talk with their gods and you consider them weird and fantasy-driven. You do not identify with them and you do not agree that their version works. You certainly do have dissonance with them.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 06-06-2021 2:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 6:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 89 of 126 (886783)
06-07-2021 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
06-07-2021 6:36 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Mormons, Pastafarians, etc. can pray and talk with their gods and you consider them weird and fantasy-driven.


I am a Monotheist. I have a dissonance with their gods. Not them.

That's exactly the point. You do consider "other" gods weird and fantasy-driven. You only identify with "other believers" who agree with you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 6:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 3:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 93 of 126 (886802)
06-08-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
06-07-2021 3:23 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

You act as if relativism is the norm.


Of course it is. If you think there's anything objective about your views, you have to demonstrate that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 3:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 94 of 126 (886803)
06-08-2021 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile.


But of course you can. There is nothing objective to distinguish one from another.

Phat writes:

One of them actually is GOD


You can't possibly know that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 104 of 126 (886882)
06-13-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
06-13-2021 11:41 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I am unmoved by only evidence...for evidence is never final..it is by nature progressive.

A living Jesus speaks to my heart. An evolving concept of religion and human responses to it does not.


So you reject progressive knowledge based on evidence - in favor of the absolute knowledge that you already have. How arrogant.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 115 of 126 (886929)
06-19-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
06-19-2021 10:38 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

I already do conceive the clarity and beauty of reality.


You can't be objective all by yourself. Every religion thinks they have the clarity that you think you have. Objective reality is something that people with different religious beliefs can agree on.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 10:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 117 of 126 (886931)
06-19-2021 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
06-19-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Phat writes:

So then are you saying that objective reality is arrived at by consensus?


Pretty much has to be. Nobody can see past the beam in their own eye.

Phat writes:

And for that, you call me arrogant.


I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 120 of 126 (886934)
06-19-2021 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
06-19-2021 12:37 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Phat writes:

So I picked the right God out of a pile of imitators.
Rather, He picked me. And I've been trying to get away from Him ever since. You are right in that I don't usually listen to Him. Nobody really wants to give away all they have. Nobody that we know personally, that is.


And once again your post has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Try again. I said, "I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else."


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19729
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 123 of 126 (886939)
06-19-2021 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
06-19-2021 12:50 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

There is nothing objective to distinguish one from another.


And yet you claim that objectivity is arrived at through consensus.

There's no "yet" about it. There is no objective way to distinguish one god from another. There is no consensus on which god is the "right" one.

If you can show us how your god is objectively different from the others, DO it.

Phat writes:

All I know is that you dont know what I know.


I know what you post here.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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