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Author | Topic: Gun Control III | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: You have heard the phrase that the pen is mightier than the sword. For the sake of argument, one could say that bad ideas indirectly kill or cripple as many or more people than do guns. Would you argue that banning all guns is as silly as banning all pens? The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support. How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society? What are some reasons to keep this freedom intact? How could we do it while making the streets safer? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society? First, understand that the right to bear arms is a Constitutional Protected fact just like the Right of Freedom of Religion or Freedom of Speech or any of the other similar "Rights" enumerated in our Constitution. That does not mean that any of those rights are unlimited or illimitable. But it does mean that any limits we choose to apply to those rights must have a reasoned basis founded in facts not misinformation. While we may not like those facts we need to recognize that such facts do exist. The proper way to limit the Right to Bear Arms in the US is twofold; first through the legal system and then through education, enforcement of the laws and mitigating the root cause of violence.My Website: My Website
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You can't. As I pointed out in another post once upon a time, your country has had this problem for hundreds of years.
So how do we educate,inspire, and discipline this society that wants guns? Phat writes:
And there you go. That's the root of the problem. Some of us resist a government that forces laws on us."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow. It is my argument against mandatory reparations that jar questions the problem with. 49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
jar writes: The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support. Not that a more enlightened approach by government wouldn't help, but all the evidence says guns are the problem.
Saying that AR-15 type rifles are the problem is absolutely as stupid as claiming the election was stolen. I think you need to respond to arguments actually made instead of ones you make up.
Personally, I find the AR platform ugly and really unpleasant and so it's not something I own or shoot. But to say that it is more dangerous than other platforms is at best sophomoric. This assertion about relative deadliness is wrong, you offered no evidence in support, and you didn't address evidence introduced earlier that argues against this assertion. More on relative deadliness later.
It's not concealable. Not true and not a problem. Then there are the localities where carrying semi-automatic rifles out in the open is perfectly legal, so no one has any inkling they're in danger until the person opens fire.
It's not something that is effective in close quarters or crowds. Questionable and obviously not much of an obstacle anyway.
It's a distance weapon rather than a BBD (Bad Breath Distance) choice. It's not used in very many of the reported shooting. Obviously false. Referencing Guns used in mass shootings U.S. 2022 | Statista, since 1982 handguns have been used in 96 incidents and semi-automatic rifles in 47 (for an unexplained reason the Las Vegas Strip massacre wasn't included in the count, so it's really 48). Boiling this down, 2/3 of mass shootings are committed with handguns, 1/3 with semi-automatic rifles. But the deadlier the mass shooting the more likely an AR-15 style weapon was involved. Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia reveals that for deadlier mass shootings, 10 or more dead, the likelihood of a semi-automatic rifle being responsible rises from a third to nearly a half. For the top 10 mass shootings the involvement of semi-automatic rifles rises to 70%.
But most of all, it does not address the root causes of violence. But more effective gun control *would* address a root cause of violence ending in murder.
It is an easy cop-out similar to the Salvation Get Otta Hell Free card and so a feel good position for folk that are unable or unwilling to think. People could just respond, "No, you're wrong, it's you who's unable or unwilling to think." What now? Maybe discuss the evidence? --Percy
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Phat writes:
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow. So you do NOT believe in Democracy? what about 54%? 60%? 99%?
49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve. talk about white privilege running amok! Yes, Phat - white christians ARE the problem. Especially male white Christians. although Saracuda, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are making big headway into that male dominant field."I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." - xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Actually, it's considerably less than 51%.
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow. Phat writes:
You seem to be the only one talking about "mandatory reparations". But yes, when you do something wrong, reparations are an important step in doing what's right.
It is my argument against mandatory reparations that jar questions the problem with. Phat writes:
It really doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay. 49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The evidence is out there Percy, real evidence not infotainment.
The relative deadliness of various ammo is pretty much irrelevant. There simply isn't much difference. The difference between a longer barrel and a shorter barrel is significant. But to claim an AR-15 is more deadly than a M1 or AK-47 or SKS or AR-10 or and of the literally hundreds of other rifles is just flat wrong. But it is an easy cop-out feel good position for those who are unwilling or unable to think. Violence is a problem. But looking at those states and cities with the most restrictive gun laws doesn't show that the laws prevent any shootings. So let's look at reality. What do we see in the US today when it comes to gun laws? Do we see cities and states eliminating the right to bear arms? What are the legislatures and courts saying?My Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One of my favorite things to do, even though it often frustrates and annoys many of my peers--is to figure out the emotional appeals and likely dynamics of one making an argument. So let me take a wild guess at two characters. jar and Percy.
jar likely was initiated into an inner sanctum where men learned to handle guns and viewed them as a responsibility and charge rather than a social or cultural right. Likely it was his father. the gun became a symbol of responsibility and maturity. Add to this the fact that the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. The honest way to approach jar on these subjects is to present a reasoned argument as to why the constitution should be changed. Keep in mind that he feels responsible for defending the constitution in these matters. Emotional and logical appeals based on gun violence will fail to persuade him. Percy has some skills at gathering facts from the news media which show that gun violence is a very real problem both among police and citizens. He tries to appeal to common sense and rationality. A good argument but it wont move the NRA. Especially the inner sanctum who feel guns to be an ongoing symbol of responsibility and sacred defense of the constitution. The only way to reach them is in court, where one needs a skilled attorney on behalf of the people who will challenge the sacred aura and the social responsibility. Even then, the laws are constitutionally enforced. So jar....be honest. If there was a movement trying to change the constitution, would you automatically fight it? Would you defend the constitution no matter what the proponents of changing it argued? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: There is always a way to challenge authority. Its as human as fear of snakes. I have a fear of snakes who are smarter than God. If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes, Phat - white Christians ARE the problem. So which cultural group are we replacing them with in the social hierarchy? Are there any worthy enough? Who gets to run the planet next? What qualifications do they have?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
DrJOnes* writes: really perhaps you could point out where the shockwave inducer should go in my build. I must have left it out when I put it together the first time.
Was this an attempt at some kind of wry humor, or are you really this disinterested in serious discussion? To answer your question anyway, the "shockwave inducer" is not shown in your photo, nor is the "shockwave inducer container". Here they are:
--Percy
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Phat asks"
So which cultural group are we replacing them with in the social hierarchy? Are there any worthy enough? Who gets to run the planet next? What qualifications do they have? how about none of the above! not anarchy, although that has a certain romanticized attraction. i'd like to see an amalgam of everybody with equal powers and representation. impossible at the moment, but worth striving for."I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." - xongsmith, 5.7d
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
DrJones* writes: so the "shockwave" is not inherent to the AR-15 as Percy claimed. In fact it can happen regardless of which type of firearm fires the bullet. Will you next claim, "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people"? I had a feeling you weren't being serious. I've been saying "AR-15 style weapons," which are capable of inflicting devastating and often lethal injuries. Any weapons capable of inflicting these kinds of injuries should also be banned. I also favor banning bullets designed to increase their ability to harm, of any calibre for any gun. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course. There are all kinds of legal challenges and pressures along to way to a law being enacted. But once the law is enacted, civilized people render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. They don't storm the Capitol.
ringo writes:
There is always a way to challenge authority. If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay. Phat writes:
They're not necessarily smarter than God - just more honest. I have a fear of snakes who are smarter than God."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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