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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Posts: 20247
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2

Message 902 of 905 (886285)
05-13-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by Phat
05-12-2021 9:44 AM

Re: Right To Bear Arms Re-examined
Phat writes:

How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society?

We do not live in a dysfunctional society. The firearm death rate will climb rapidly in any society that adopts accommodative gun laws and is flooded by easy to obtain guns and lots of ads glorifying guns resulting in a gun culture where people fall in love with their guns and zealously defend their right to endanger themselves and everyone around them

If anything is dysfunctional it's the 2nd amendment. It was written in the time of muskets, and even though it's worded clearly, it apparently wasn't clear enough because the Supreme Court found room to misinterpret it in favor of a right to gun ownership by nearly everyone despite that the militias that were the justification no longer exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 9:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Posts: 20247
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2

Message 903 of 905 (886286)
05-13-2021 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Phat
05-12-2021 12:25 AM

Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

Some of us resist a government that forces laws on us.

What is a law that is forced on you? One you don't like? If one disagreed with the "right turn on red" law, does that mean it was forced on them?

No government makes laws that 100% of the people agree with. We live in a representative democracy. We don't resist a legitimately elected government just because it passes laws we don't like. We instead vote for people who will pass laws more to our liking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Posts: 20247
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2

Message 904 of 905 (886288)
05-13-2021 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 894 by jar
05-13-2021 6:49 AM

Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

The evidence is out there Percy, real evidence not infotainment.

And yet you can't find any evidence to put in a message. When you say "the evidence is out there" you're using almost identical language to the Trump crazies claiming the election was stolen. Okey, great, the evidence is out there. Go find it.

You go on to attack some claims (again without evidence) that were never made, or at least not ones that I ever made. I won't be defending things I never said.


Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by jar, posted 05-13-2021 6:49 AM jar has not yet responded

Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1

Message 905 of 905 (886289)
05-13-2021 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
05-12-2021 10:36 AM

Re: Violence and root causes.
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow.

Two big problems with that:

  1. In a democracy, it's "the majority rules." You take a vote and everybody does what the majority decided through that vote. That's how democracy works!

  2. We don't have a complete democracy (eg, as Athens did and had to go to extremes to corral its citizens in to get them to vote; ie, it didn't work), but rather a representative republic in which the laws are made by representatives who are chosen by their constituents through democratic means.

The sad situation we are in now is that through various forms of political skullduggery the representatives of a distinct minority of the population form the majority of many legislative bodies in this country.

That means that the majority of Americans are being subjected to laws imposed on them by the minority! And now we are seeing representatives of that minority making new laws to further dilute the vote of the majority thus giving even more power to that minority.

Time to do some math:

US Population 331,449,281
Non-citizens -25,000,000
Citizens 306,449,281

Proportion of population 18 and over: 76%
Eligible to vote 232,901,454

Registered Republicans -- 36,132,743 15.5% of eligible to vote
Registered Democrats -- 48,517,845 20.8% of eligible to vote
Unaffiliated or other -- 148,250,866 63.7% of eligible to vote

Presidential Vote:
for Biden -- 81,268,924 51.3% 34.9% of eligible to vote
for Trump -- 74,216,154 46.86% 31.9% of eligible to vote
for other -- 2,898,325 1.83% 1.24% of eligible to vote
Total votes -- 158,383,403 ------ 68% of eligible to vote

Republican support for Trump over party as per April 2021 poll -- 44%

All registered Republicans and Democrats voted (the weakest part of the assumption) and they did so by party.
32,751,079 unaffiliated voted for Biden
38,083,411 unaffiliated voted for Trump
2,898,325 unaffiliated voted for other
74,518,051 unaffiliated did not vote

Basically, what the numbers show is that Democrats outnumber Republicans and that the swing demographic (ie, unaffiliated and other) is surprisingly large.

Also, the Trumpian base amounts to about 44% of Republicans or about 15.9 million, about 6.8% of the total electorate (or about 10% of the electorate that had bothered to vote).

And yet the Republican politicians holding seats in both houses of Congress as well as in state legislatures are Trumpian!. And in many of those state legislatures those Trumpians control those legislatures, while in Congress they have controlled Congress in the past and they have Congress very narrowly split (and could take the Congress back in 2022) while representing only 10%!

Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to be deemed as representing 46.86% of the electorate, that is still a minority! A minority making laws that adversely affect the majority!

So your complaint about the "51%" is not only contrary to how democracy works, but it is also far out of touch with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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