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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009

Message 24 of 126 (886311)
05-15-2021 3:39 PM

Non-Creation Christianity
I've seen it implied many times, and was directly told once (can't remember when or where) that Christians who are creationists are actually in a minority of all Christianity. Back in the "God Delusion" thread, these two comments inspired me to possibly start a new thread;
jar writes:
Also it is essential to point out that much of Christianity also totally rejects creationism and Intelligent Design so all the evidence shows that Science and Old Earth and Evolution are not atheistic but simply reality.
Phat writes:
I dont know nor care too much about defending Creationism. In regards to the new generals, however, I had heard that Stephen Meyer and Jonathan Sarfati were the Literati whom were left. What flaws do the majority of you discern in these two men? And again....I don't really see why there even exists Creationism except for the profit motive in writing books.
But since it seems to fit in this thread well enough, I'll just start it here. I have no idea where it will lead.
Creationism is ORGANIZED, all Protestant denominations don't seem to take exception to it. While I don't see many of them making a big deal of it, they all preach and believe that every word of the Bible is true. Including the first 5 words; "In the beginning God created..."
Ken Ham makes a big deal of it, his elaborate website, his creation museum, his "Ark Encounter", are there for anyone who wants to see and learn more of his conservative, literal Biblical beliefs. And he has armies of other Bible scholars who collaborate with him on everything he says. There are Biblical scholars that are syndicated throughout U.S. radio and television, Charles Stanley, John McArthur, David Jerimiah, several others, all creationists as far as I know.
There have been debates in the past, the well known one between Ken Ham and Bill Nye. But Nye didn't represent non-creation Christianity, he represented atheism. Why has Ham never debated a well known non-creation Christian? Maybe because there aren't any? WHY NOT?
A much longer ago collegiate debate happened between Kenneth Miller and Henry Morris. Kenneth Miller is more of a science guy than a representative of non-creation Christianity. I'm sure Morris, like Ham, would have liked to have a discussion with one. Why haven't they? Because they don't exist?
Who are Jar and Phat's teachers? Where is the organization in non-creation Christianity? What's their go-to source to get information on just what parts of the Bible are true, and what parts are "allegories"?
If the majority of Christians are not creationists, I'd expect there to be tons of names of "SCIENTIFIC BIBLE SCHOLARS", who could answer tons of questions, since they would be halfway between atheists like Richard Dawkins, and creationists like Ken Ham. Who are they, what are some names of syndicated high profile scientific Bible scholars, that I can learn from and listen to on radio, and watch on television on Sunday mornings?
I suspect they don't exist. When Jar says, as he did once here; "Christ wasn't much of a Christian", and many other amazing things that he and Phat say, I suspect they simply come up with them themselves, with no references or organization as to where they came from. Those two certainly have their disagreements with each other, I've never seen either of them point to an authoritative source, concerning their non-creation Christianity.
If atheism has plenty of organization in science (and it does), and creationism has plenty of organization in protestant religion, (and it does) where is the organization in all this COMMON non-creation Christianity?

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 05-15-2021 4:48 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2021 5:07 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 27 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-15-2021 5:28 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 34 by dwise1, posted 05-19-2021 6:33 PM marc9000 has replied

Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009

Message 28 of 126 (886364)
05-17-2021 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tangle
05-15-2021 5:07 PM

Re: Non-Creation Christianity
There is no such thing as organised atheism. Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. It's not an institution, it has no organisation, no funding, no structure, no nothing. Atheists are just individuals that individually don't believe what you believe. Or anyone else's other god fantasies. It's a lack, it's not a something. You're railing against a a nothing.
And we have another winner! 2 days go by, and none of these other truth seekers attempt to correct you.
Has no one here ever heard of American Atheists?
Since 1963, American Atheists has protected the absolute separation of religion from government, raised the profile of atheists and atheism in our nation’s public and political discourse, and educated Americans about atheism. Now, more than ever, we need your help.
Nooooooo!!!! There is no such thing as organized atheism!!
Freedom From Religion Foundation - Freedom From Religion Foundation
Won’t you join FFRF in our critical work to promote nontheism and defend the constitutional separation between religion and government? With more than 30,000 members, FFRF, a 501(c)(3) nonprophet nonprofit, works as an effective state/church watchdog and voice for freethought (atheism, agnosticism, skepticism).
More evidence that this place isn't about truth, it's only about shouting down regular Americans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2021 5:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 05-17-2021 8:52 AM marc9000 has replied

Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009

Message 30 of 126 (886422)
05-19-2021 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
05-15-2021 4:48 PM

Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Take a look at the plaintiffs in McLean vs Arkansas. The United Methodists were the main force opposing creationism in this case. But the Episcopal Church, the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the Presbyterians were in on it, too.
And all four of those denominations use the 66 book Bible, creation references and all. Why would they oppose creationism "in this case"? POLITICS is the only answer. They know how much atheism is organized, they know how big the ACLU war chest is. They preferred to avoid legal problems, and they possibly don't completely understand how much the atheism that's in today's science classes threatens the society in which they live.
Maybe Howard Van Till, Francis Collins, Rowan Williams, Kenneth Miller, Simon Conway-Morris and the many others aren’t - or weren’t - interested in debating Ken Ham?
Or maybe they're afraid to.
Real Bible scholars aren’t “syndicated” or generally even “high profile”. I bet you’d be hard put to name one - creationist or not.
I did name a few, in the last message. Charles Stanley, John McArthur, David Jerimiah - you might have recently heard of McArthur, he stood his ground against those who tried to use covid 19 to close down his church. He was ready to go to jail, but his opponents backed down, they probably realized it would help his publicity if he did.
If atheism has “plenty of organisation in science” I’d like to see it. Naming scientists who happen to be atheists hardly counts.
You'll be seeing it, before I'm done in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 05-15-2021 4:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 05-19-2021 5:51 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 33 by nwr, posted 05-19-2021 6:27 PM marc9000 has not replied

Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009

Message 32 of 126 (886424)
05-19-2021 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
05-17-2021 8:52 AM

Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Well that was 100% predictable. There's a club for trainspotters too. People have hobbies.
Do you think that is in anyway comparable to any religious organisation - even the smallest, daftest Christian cult?
Why yes, I do.
Atheist Alliance International – For a Secular World
AHA - American Humanist Association
Home - Secular Student Alliance
Home - Secular Coalition for America
CFI: Center for Inquiry
The Center for Inquiry strives to foster a secular society based on reason, science, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.
You don't have to look hard to find the word "science" at any of these sites.
Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers | providing community for atheists and humanists in the military
Rational Response Squad - Wikipedia
Brazilian Association of Atheists and Agnostics - Wikipedia.
Internet Infidels » a drop of reason in a pool of confusion
The Atheist Agenda - Wikipedia
Join the Trend: Wear Odd Socks | Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
Database Error
About the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry | Skeptical Inquirer
The mission of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry is to promote scientific inquiry,
Home - Camp Quest
Our Famous Freethinkers program raises awareness of positive contributions made by atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, and other non-theistic people to our society.
Gotta get the kiddies while they're young!
Separation of church and state guarantees religious freedom for all
The Brights' Net - Who are The Brights?
Our Mission – Military Religious Freedom Foundation
The Humanist Institute: Higher Education for Humanism -
World Pantheism – Revering the Universe, Caring for Nature, Celebrating Life
I'm an atheist. About 40% of UK people are non-religious. We have no meeting places, no spires, chants, statues, buildings, offerings, collections, smoke and bells, no policies or catechisms, no actual contact with any other atheists except randomly in the pub in a non-collective act of drinking beer.
But you have plenty of websites, plenty of solicitations for contributions, and plenty of co-ordination with the ACLU to sue religious organizations every chance they get.
Non-religion is NOT an organisation, it's just a non-belief. A very few of us are weird enough to populate boards like this to laugh at you crazies. We occasionally join a campaign to prevent a religiously motivated political intervention that affects us like gay marriage, contraception, abortions, euthanasia, genital mutilation, forced weddings and so on.
Occasionally yes, a lot more frequently since the establishment of the internet. Gay marriage, abortions, traditional morality, re-defining who cares about the earth and who doesn't, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 05-17-2021 8:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 05-19-2021 7:45 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-20-2021 3:36 AM marc9000 has not replied

Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009

Message 36 of 126 (886435)
05-19-2021 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by dwise1
05-19-2021 6:33 PM

Re: Non-Creation Christianity
All forms of Christian doctrine that I am aware of teach that the "Christian God" is the Creator of the universe (or at the very least of the world). That would make "non-creation Christianity" an oxymoron like "vegetable athletics", "military intelligence", "creation science", or "Republican honesty".
You're not acknowledging the existence of Jar and Phat.
So what the hell are you talking about? You are making absolutely no sense at all! Do you have any clue what you are babbling about?
There is virtually no such thing as "non-creation Christianity."
Neither are you. Because there really is non-creation Christianity.
This ministry accepts modern science (including biological evolution and the Big Bang), a valuable, yet non-perfect Bible, and a Jesus of history, divine.
The universe, though finite and created by God, is unimaginably complex and vast. It contains billions of galaxies typically composed of billions of stars...
God "created" by causing an explosion? This site makes as much sense as yo do.
Creationism is completely different from Creation (and belief therein).
And it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. It's easy to understand why atheists love theistic evolutionists so much.
Dr. Kenneth Miller, PhD Biology, has been a very effective opponent of creationism.
I know, I read his book (over 10 years ago) "Finding Darwin's God". He showed little knowledge of Christianity.
Here's a fun fact: There is no inherent conflict between Divine Creation and Evolution. There is no inherent conflict between religion and science. The only conflict that can arise is solely because of individuals and groups who choose to advance false teachings.
Like those groups I listed in Message 32? Let's see, creationists aren't crazy about the influence those groups have on politics and children's education, but the OTHER kind of creationists (can we call them "TYPE 2 creationists"? ) they love it, because they believe in big bangs and a false Bible and many other things that atheists also believe?
Creationism is completely different from Creation (and belief therein).
Creationism is about lying about reality, about evolution, about science, and even about Christianity. Creationism is about false theology that effectively teaches that if the world is actually how we find it to be, then God does not exist. And creationism is about deliberate deception.
Yes, the majority of Christians, while believing in Creation and in a Creator, are not creationists!
Indeed, since there is no such thing as your "non-creation Christianity", you are clearly on the side of the lies and deception of creationism.
So creationists are not Christians? (the type A ones) The type 2 ones, ARE Christians, and.....just trying to get this all straight.
I'll have more questions about the "faith and reason" website that I linked above. (later this week)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by dwise1, posted 05-19-2021 6:33 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:25 AM marc9000 has not replied

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