Discussion With An Adventist Pastor: Raphael and Phat Only (for now)

Christians are those that believe a story. We believe the story of the middle-eastern man, Jesus (ישוע‎ ), a man who taught many things, a wise man. A man who claimed Oneness with the Divine. A man who was betrayed, tried in a corrupt trial, and executed by the Roman government around 33 AD. And a man who defied death, verifying all the things he said about himself.

From what I have seen of fellow atheists (and looking within myself ... which is all too often the basic defense used to theists to support their position), the mere existence of any god is immaterial. Rather, most atheists and (most especially) anti-theists concern themselves far more with the religions that have been created and built up around those gods. Whether any of those gods actually exist is moot or otherwise immaterial (as per the necessity of agnosticism, a god could exist but bear no resemblance to the god of those religions and definitely have no bearing on those religions ... though I doubt that many atheists have thought that one through yet), but rather the problems are with the religions centered on those gods.

So then, most of the discussion and statements we see from the atheists deal much more with the religions and the detrimental effects that they can have and have had on individual members and on society. "God" has almost nothing to do with it.

In stark contrast, Christians tend to fixate solely on the very question of the existence of their god and never go anywhere close to their religion or theology.

Most encounters atheists have with theists are in terms of (often hostile) "challenges" to our atheism put in terms of "WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, YOU (vitriolic pejorative term -- let your imagination run wild here and it will still fall completely short from what I've heard/read over so many decades?)?" Not "Why are you raising those questions and objections to the operations of Christianity?", but rather it's always only about their god.

Almost every time we try to talk with Christians, they never want to talk about anything interesting. Instead, they keep harping on nonsense like "Why do you hate God so much?" or "You keep fighting so hard against God; just surrender to His Love for you!" or "Your belief that God does not exist is just that, a belief that requires as much faith as our own belief in God and is far more arrogant than our faith is!" (basically, the argument that I recall you having started off with). Or "You are only pretending that God doesn't exist so that you can sin without guilt!" -- that one usually from Christians who want to use that legalistic loophole in their own impoverished concepts of morality or had used that loophole themselves (eg, local YEC activist whose autobiography describes him doing exactly that so now he insists that "having been an atheist himself" (demonstrably false, by his own admission, but then he has always been an outrageous liar) he "knows full well" that atheists just want to get away with sinning and escaping responsibility for their actions).

Keeping in mind the caution about actual mileage: But none of that has anything to do with what atheists actually think. All of it just comes across as yet more ignorant nonsense. This is made all the worse by those same steadfast Christians' refusal to even listen to our corrections and explanations, which makes them willfully ignorant.

Generally, when atheists reject Christianity, it is Christianity itself, the religion itself, and the adverse effects it has on individuals and on society (especially when religions gain political and police powers). When atheists get together and talk with each other, what do you think we discuss? Do you think we just sit around and share how much we do not believe in the gods? Of course not, that would be so boring and useless! Instead, we discuss a wide range of topics, including science, politics, current events, and popular culture. Regarding religion, the discussion is mainly about religion's attempts to interfere with politics and with our rights, or which COVID-denier pastors of large churches have most recently died of COVID (we can never get too much irony in our diet). We might examine the doctrine or history of particular religions. As for as the gods go, we might discuss the mythology of the various gods, including where and how they most likely got borrowed from other cultures' gods (very few of the gods were ever created ex nihilo, but rather were borrowings and/or amalgamations of other gods).

So why do theists misunderstand atheists so much? Asking them directly hasn't seemed to work, so we have to try to analyze our observations. First, there's what they are taught about atheists, which they're never clear on. I suspect that a lot of what they are taught about atheists comes from their doctrine. For example, if their doctrine teaches that everybody believes that God exists, but many are wilfully defiant, so that is what they think that atheists are doing. If their doctrine teaches that morality is based on being personally responsible to God, then they assume that atheists are trying to avoid personal responsible since without God there's nobody to be answerable to (how wrong that is!).

And then there's that fascination with the existence of "God". I think that they are projecting that onto us. That their god's existence is very important to them and they give that far more thought and attention than they do to their religion and doctrine. For them, their god is all-important and the religion part basically just comes along for the ride.

I don't really think of myself as someone who "has answers" to things lol. It is easy to project an image of yourself on the internet that you "know things" or are superior to other people. I have accused others here of intellectual arrogance, but I have probably done the same. We all probably fall prey to this at some level..it is fun to type smart-sounding things! But in the real world...I'm nobody special haha. I'm fairly certain I have been the youngest member of EvC since I joined and I still have a lot to learn!

Here's an outline:

1. Perception of Christianity: Story, Way, Gospel

2. Thoughts on Humanism & Secularism

3. Tribal Anchors

4. The Big Picture (Some Personal Conclusions)

3Story® is about relationships. It is a way of seeing how the relationships we have with other people and with God can connect and grow. When we abide in Jesus every relationship is impacted.

3Story® is not an evangelism tool or method; it is who we want to be and how we want to live. In YFC, 3Story® is our living operating system, it is our DNA. Knowing that if we seek to abide deeply with Jesus every day and stay saturated in His word, we will be ready and aware of the opportunities He gives us in a lost world. We focus on being with Jesus. All of our doing flows from our being with Jesus.

if Jesus was God, and conquered death, and now commands all authority in the universe and is worthy of all honor and glory then really, it's the only thing that actually matters at all in all of human history. Everything else is secondary. And its such good news, because Jesus wants my (and your, and everyone's!) joy and flourishing more than even I want those things for me. If He is God, then that is the only logical direction to go, anything else would be insanity, searching dry cisterns for water that will never satisfy.

I think I would need a little more context...what do you mean they "call you out on your human-centric hypocrisy?" Do you mean they say you are a hypocrite for not following their perceived teachings of Jesus? Or am I off base?

I can't support Young Earth Creationism at all.
The only thing they teach that I can support is that "God did it", which is a conclusion on their part.
Modern Young Earth Creation was invented by Ellen G. White in the 1800's after she had been hit on the head by a rock and was in a coma for 2 weeks. It is not supported by the Bible.
I have argued with YEC"S here and on two other websites and no one has ever presented a scripture that supports their belief.

They are just like the people who want to claim the universe is 13.5 billion years old, they have no supporting evidence . If the universe had a beginning to exist 13.5 billion years ago, and there was no existence before the universe began to exist, then where did it come from. Best answer given until this date is "We don't know". Then the argument goes on but we know what we believe and it has to be so.

I did a search last night and found that they are still no closer to an answer than they were when I started posting on EvC 12 years ago.

In fact the origin of the universe is classified as one of the most mysterious events that has ever occurred.