Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9072 total)
66 online now:
AZPaul3 (1 member, 65 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,178 Year: 4,290/6,534 Month: 504/900 Week: 28/182 Day: 0/16 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Discussion With An Adventist Pastor: Raphael and Phat Only (for now)
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 1 of 16 (886633)
05-28-2021 2:30 PM


I wanted to formally propose a Great Debate between myself and our Seminary student Raphael. Technically I don't see this as a debate so much as a discussion, though he and I may find points of contention.

In the end, I believe that mutual respect and thoughtful responses will be the norm. I wanted to start by asking Raph about 7th Day Adventism and how it is similar to and differs from the beliefs that I have grown up with and the charismatic beliefs which I now embrace. (Though I am perennially a work in progress.)

For the rest of you, please comment in the peanut gallery thread.Message 164

Percy can you formally give me the go-ahead to promote this?

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPhat, : added request for Percys approval

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Raphael, posted 05-29-2021 3:24 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 16 (886698)
05-31-2021 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Raphael
05-29-2021 3:24 AM


Opening Statements

Let's start with your perception of Christianity in general, Secularism and Humanism next, and finally how you are anchored to your tribal roots and what it means for you in a Big Picture context within this life we all lead. (Can't believe I just said that! Am I making sense or am I jabberwocky?)

After you start, I will tell you of my roots and my tribe and belief statement as of this fine Spring day in 2021.
You first, though.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Raphael, posted 05-29-2021 3:24 AM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Raphael, posted 05-31-2021 8:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 5 by Raphael, posted 05-31-2021 10:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 16 (886707)
06-01-2021 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Raphael
05-31-2021 10:06 PM


Re: Roots & Pictures
There are many worse ways that we could feed our internet addictions apart from this conversation, but I am optimistic that my attempts at communion via blogging and debating/discussing will eventually produce some fruit.
FYI, Tangle mentioned you as my "new guru" and inferred that I was being obsequious towards you. I do respect you and how far you have come since High School, but let the record show that I am in no way obsequious nor worshipful towards Raphael and consider him a brother in Christ and nothing more. Tangle has some rather odd view of me based on my conversations with Pastor ICANT in this thread: Message 1

He is in his eighties and is quite conservative. You being more liberal will provide a nice contrast, hopefully.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : tidied it up


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Raphael, posted 05-31-2021 10:06 PM Raphael has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 7 of 16 (886748)
06-04-2021 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Raphael
05-31-2021 8:04 PM


Re: Opening Statements

Here we go! EvC can be an addiction, but I consider it as therapeutic, also. A shoutout to Percy for providing such a platform for evolving versus creative discussions! Seriously...thanks, Percy.

So let me follow your outline, Raph.

1. STORY, WAY, GOSPEL (Phats Response)
I like how you broke it down, and agree with this statement:

Raphael writes:

Christians are those that believe a story. We believe the story of the middle-eastern man, Jesus (ישוע‎ ), a man who taught many things, a wise man. A man who claimed Oneness with the Divine. A man who was betrayed, tried in a corrupt trial, and executed by the Roman government around 33 AD. And a man who defied death, verifying all the things he said about himself.

I grew up in a "Leave It To Beaver" suburb in a house that my father built. He was a homebuilder by trade, having come out of the US Navy, (Japanese theatre, from a Destroyer Escort), and before that he grew up poor in rural Missouri. He and Mom married and came west. Settling in Denver, they raised my sister(b 1950) and myself (b 1959), and through Dads hard work was able to send her to college and me to a private High School. Growing up, I attended a Methodist Church and found it to be basically a social club for my parents and their friends of similar economic status celebrating Gods providence over America (since WWII) and showing each other the fruits of their labor (namely us kids and the car they drove as symbols of being in the club of prosperity. A God-Given right, mind you.

Nothing stood out about God to me. I saw Him as the cartoons see him. A bearded old man in the sky.


As for Jesus, we were taught the basic schpiel.

dwise1 and you had a series of enlightening conversations recently. I've grown to like and respect dwise1, and his stories and analogies add to the richness and depth of our debates and discussions here at EvC.

dwise1 responding to Raphael writes:

From what I have seen of fellow atheists (and looking within myself ... which is all too often the basic defense used to theists to support their position), the mere existence of any god is immaterial. Rather, most atheists and (most especially) anti-theists concern themselves far more with the religions that have been created and built up around those gods. Whether any of those gods actually exist is moot or otherwise immaterial (as per the necessity of agnosticism, a god could exist but bear no resemblance to the god of those religions and definitely have no bearing on those religions ... though I doubt that many atheists have thought that one through yet), but rather the problems are with the religions centered on those gods.

So then, most of the discussion and statements we see from the atheists deal much more with the religions and the detrimental effects that they can have and have had on individual members and on society. "God" has almost nothing to do with it.

In stark contrast, Christians tend to fixate solely on the very question of the existence of their god and never go anywhere close to their religion or theology.

Most encounters atheists have with theists are in terms of (often hostile) "challenges" to our atheism put in terms of "WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, YOU (vitriolic pejorative term -- let your imagination run wild here and it will still fall completely short from what I've heard/read over so many decades?)?" Not "Why are you raising those questions and objections to the operations of Christianity?", but rather it's always only about their god.

Almost every time we try to talk with Christians, they never want to talk about anything interesting. Instead, they keep harping on nonsense like "Why do you hate God so much?" or "You keep fighting so hard against God; just surrender to His Love for you!" or "Your belief that God does not exist is just that, a belief that requires as much faith as our own belief in God and is far more arrogant than our faith is!" (basically, the argument that I recall you having started off with). Or "You are only pretending that God doesn't exist so that you can sin without guilt!" -- that one usually from Christians who want to use that legalistic loophole in their own impoverished concepts of morality or had used that loophole themselves (eg, local YEC activist whose autobiography describes him doing exactly that so now he insists that "having been an atheist himself" (demonstrably false, by his own admission, but then he has always been an outrageous liar) he "knows full well" that atheists just want to get away with sinning and escaping responsibility for their actions).

Keeping in mind the caution about actual mileage: But none of that has anything to do with what atheists actually think. All of it just comes across as yet more ignorant nonsense. This is made all the worse by those same steadfast Christians' refusal to even listen to our corrections and explanations, which makes them willfully ignorant.

Generally, when atheists reject Christianity, it is Christianity itself, the religion itself, and the adverse effects it has on individuals and on society (especially when religions gain political and police powers). When atheists get together and talk with each other, what do you think we discuss? Do you think we just sit around and share how much we do not believe in the gods? Of course not, that would be so boring and useless! Instead, we discuss a wide range of topics, including science, politics, current events, and popular culture. Regarding religion, the discussion is mainly about religion's attempts to interfere with politics and with our rights, or which COVID-denier pastors of large churches have most recently died of COVID (we can never get too much irony in our diet). We might examine the doctrine or history of particular religions. As for as the gods go, we might discuss the mythology of the various gods, including where and how they most likely got borrowed from other cultures' gods (very few of the gods were ever created ex nihilo, but rather were borrowings and/or amalgamations of other gods).

So why do theists misunderstand atheists so much? Asking them directly hasn't seemed to work, so we have to try to analyze our observations. First, there's what they are taught about atheists, which they're never clear on. I suspect that a lot of what they are taught about atheists comes from their doctrine. For example, if their doctrine teaches that everybody believes that God exists, but many are wilfully defiant, so that is what they think that atheists are doing. If their doctrine teaches that morality is based on being personally responsible to God, then they assume that atheists are trying to avoid personal responsible since without God there's nobody to be answerable to (how wrong that is!).

And then there's that fascination with the existence of "God". I think that they are projecting that onto us. That their god's existence is very important to them and they give that far more thought and attention than they do to their religion and doctrine. For them, their god is all-important and the religion part basically just comes along for the ride.

Beautiful! He is right, you know. I have spent a lot of my time defending GOD and Jesus as I understand Him. (I'm a Trinitarian, by and large. So far, anyway. It makes basic sense to me.)

So getting back to my story.

I never became self-aware of being a "believer" until I got saved at age 34.(give or take...I think I was 34) There was an internal catharsis...a heightened awareness of the possibility that God was alive and actually came into my soul as a Spirit and related to me. I can elaborate on that if you want. It might be an entertaining part of our dialogue...but keep in mind that here at EvC I am an egoist and all topics revolve around Phat. Please pray for that character flaw! More later.

Edited by Phat, : added GD topic warning


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Raphael, posted 05-31-2021 8:04 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Raphael, posted 06-07-2021 9:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 9 of 16 (886792)
06-08-2021 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raphael
06-07-2021 9:42 PM


Re: Opening Statements

Raphael writes:

I don't really think of myself as someone who "has answers" to things lol. It is easy to project an image of yourself on the internet that you "know things" or are superior to other people. I have accused others here of intellectual arrogance, but I have probably done the same. We all probably fall prey to this at some level..it is fun to type smart-sounding things! But in the real world...I'm nobody special haha. I'm fairly certain I have been the youngest member of EvC since I joined and I still have a lot to learn!

I was unknowingly quite arrogant once I got saved. It is said that the basic characteristics of individuals within a growing church body mirror that of their Pastor/Leader. We (the saved bunch) had a charismatic leader in Paul Schell. Our church imagined itself as just a bit more enlightened than the average church of the evangelical garden variety. We cast out demons. We spoke in tongues. They were still stuck back with Kenneth Copeland....trying to claim a prosperity Gospel while *we* knew that the world was about to end and that we would be the great end time army of the remnant left after the Rapture.

It was in this attitude that I first came to EvC in 2003. I knew I was saved, I knew about demons, and I was itching for a fight. Which is when I ran into jar. And so began a series of debates in which I was challenged and my beliefs torn to pieces. It has been annoying, even frustrating, and the evidence shows that I have changed little in the past 17+ years at this Forum. The archives speak for themselves.

I will say, however, that I have met some very interesting people here at EvC Forum. But let's continue with your outlined format, shall we?

Raphaels Outline writes:

Here's an outline:

1. Perception of Christianity: Story, Way, Gospel

2. Thoughts on Humanism & Secularism

3. Tribal Anchors

4. The Big Picture (Some Personal Conclusions)

1. STORY, WAY, GOSPEL (Phats Response, continued) I began to volunteer at the State Youth Detention Centers around 1995 all the way up through 2010 or so. I was under the ministry of Denver Area Youth For Christ, and had several wonderful mentors within that organization. I've got some stories from that timeframe that would make you cry. As a youth-oriented Pastor in training, I'm sure that you could entertain us with stories of your own, Raphael...and as this topic unwinds, perhaps we both will have an opportunity to share.

Denver YFC had a way of teaching us Three Story Evangelism. The basic premise was to share your own story, LISTEN as the youth shared THEIR story, and concluded by tying in the Story of Jesus Christ and His redemptive mission and invitation to meet Him.

YFC Leadership Development writes:

3Story® is about relationships. It is a way of seeing how the relationships we have with other people and with God can connect and grow. When we abide in Jesus every relationship is impacted.

3Story® is not an evangelism tool or method; it is who we want to be and how we want to live. In YFC, 3Story® is our living operating system, it is our DNA. Knowing that if we seek to abide deeply with Jesus every day and stay saturated in His word, we will be ready and aware of the opportunities He gives us in a lost world. We focus on being with Jesus. All of our doing flows from our being with Jesus.

It seemed to work, as long as I put in my pew time and prayer time. To this day I believe that God works best through willing vessels.

I used to teach that there were three levels.
1) Knowing About God. (Quite Generic. God could be the wind, the still small voice, or the presence of the force, aka Star Wars.)
2) Meeting God. (The salvation "Born Again" experience. Billy Graham's basic invitation.)
3) A day-to-day relationship with the Lord. Which is basically where I am at now...though some days I forget about my duties and go off on a rant about entitlement or fairness, or apologetics. I am a rebel at heart, though I likely would never throw God away, as has been suggested by critical thinkers here at the forums who want me to break out of my preconceived and ill-taught notions.

*pauses and takes a sip of tea*

Edited by Phat, : fixed quotes

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Raphael, posted 06-07-2021 9:42 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Raphael, posted 06-14-2021 8:57 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 10 of 16 (886858)
06-13-2021 3:38 AM


Perception of Christianity: Story, Way, Gospel

My chief critic and teacher-at-large, jar from deep south Texas, always challenged me on how I knew that the Holy Spirit was God, or how I knew that a particular theme of my professed beliefs was of God or was God speaking. Jar always claimed to be a believer,(Episcopalian since middle school) but pointed out that there was no objective evidence for any of the claims made. He had some unique perspectives on scripture that I had rarely heard elsewhere. One example is the idea that "the God" lied and the snake(serpent) told the truth. No apologist nor teacher had ever taught me that before, and to this day I am uncomfortable with it.

Ringo takes it a step further. He basically believes that the message is more important than the messenger, even if the messenger was (and is) Jesus Christ. If I try and challenge him, he will point out that I don't even do what Jesus told me I should do. He uses only what is written to speak on behalf of Jesus, however. I'm not sure what to do with his arguments. But it's 135 am and I simply must get some sleep. I hope you respond before too long, or i will end up with a monologue rather than a dialogue.

Edited by Phat, : spell-o-rama


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Raphael, posted 06-14-2021 9:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 16 (886902)
06-17-2021 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Raphael
06-14-2021 9:23 PM


Re: Perception of Christianity: Personal Notes

Raphael writes:

if Jesus was God, and conquered death, and now commands all authority in the universe and is worthy of all honor and glory then really, it's the only thing that actually matters at all in all of human history. Everything else is secondary. And its such good news, because Jesus wants my (and your, and everyone's!) joy and flourishing more than even I want those things for me. If He is God, then that is the only logical direction to go, anything else would be insanity, searching dry cisterns for water that will never satisfy.

You may note that nearly every secular humanist/atheist/unitarian at this Forum is in the agreement of the sanctity of "the message", the irrelevance of whether Jesus ever actually existed, and the argument that I am a hypocrite for not giving "it all" away!

First of all, Pastor how dare they? They don't even believe that Jesus is/was ever real and yet they call me out on my (human-centric) hypocrasy? I would like to hear your honest take on it all.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Raphael, posted 06-14-2021 9:23 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Raphael, posted 06-21-2021 6:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 15 of 16 (887011)
06-28-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Raphael
06-21-2021 6:36 PM


Re: Perception of Christianity: Personal Notes

Raphael writes:

I think I would need a little more context...what do you mean they "call you out on your human-centric hypocrisy?" Do you mean they say you are a hypocrite for not following their perceived teachings of Jesus? Or am I off base?

No sir you are spot on! Hey, they are right...but let he who is without sin among you throw that first rock! But of course, they have humanized the message and dismissed the authority behind it. I, on the other hand, do not fully listen to Jesus(the authority behind the message) and am honest about it yet uncomfortable at the same time. In my defense, I feel as if I am a work in progress. Now if only He agrees with my self-assessment, we still have a ball game!

Edited by Phat, : added Closed Topic Announcement


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Raphael, posted 06-21-2021 6:36 PM Raphael has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15936
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 16 of 16 (887687)
08-20-2021 8:37 AM


Catching Up With Raphael

Raphael, I know that you have been busy. Not too many here at EvC know the full capacity of your life (including me) but I think I know you better than EvC does.

I have been rather ornery and somewhat delusional here at the Forum of late. Percy thinks its my blood sugar, and urges me to take better care of myself. I DO go to counseling, and am growing slowly in regards to awareness and rationality, and EvC is a place for me to vent. (I have had some issues in my head clear up lately regarding events that happened to me in my youth and perhaps selfishly used EvC as a venting spot...but it damaged my already shaky reputation here) Perhaps only a few here understand this fact and I am thinking that all of them are bothered by it. I come across as a right wing racist, and this is a bit surprising to me yet it is through pushing certain buttons and hot button topics that I understand the contrary positions of most of the educated folks here.

(Anyone reading this that would like to respond can do so in the Peanut Gallery Comments On Great Debate topic. )

Anyway, Raphael, I thought of you after reading Message 310 which I happened to read this morning.

ICANT writes:

I can't support Young Earth Creationism at all.
The only thing they teach that I can support is that "God did it", which is a conclusion on their part.
Modern Young Earth Creation was invented by Ellen G. White in the 1800's after she had been hit on the head by a rock and was in a coma for 2 weeks. It is not supported by the Bible.
I have argued with YEC"S here and on two other websites and no one has ever presented a scripture that supports their belief.

They are just like the people who want to claim the universe is 13.5 billion years old, they have no supporting evidence . If the universe had a beginning to exist 13.5 billion years ago, and there was no existence before the universe began to exist, then where did it come from. Best answer given until this date is "We don't know". Then the argument goes on but we know what we believe and it has to be so.

I did a search last night and found that they are still no closer to an answer than they were when I started posting on EvC 12 years ago.

In fact the origin of the universe is classified as one of the most mysterious events that has ever occurred.

So what are your personal thoughts on the importance and validity of Ellen G.White?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022