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Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 109 of 214 (864637)
10-13-2019 9:51 PM


WE HAVE ALL BEEN HERE BEFORE. (title of an article section in journal)
I found a long article (about Elizondo's amazing effort) from:
Issues in Science and Technology
VOL. XXXV, NO. 3, SPRING 2019
UFOs Won't Go Away
The above journal article (in addition to being the longest on Elizondo's big push) has a lot of details that won't be found in any other article.
Here is a site that promotes a super-skeptical angle on Elizondo's UFO story:
quote:
THE MEDIA LOVES THIS UFO EXPERT WHO SAYS HE WORKED FOR AN OBSCURE PENTAGON PROGRAM. DID HE?
Keith Kloor
June 1 2019, 6:00 a.m.
ONE OF THE first images in the opening episode of the new History Channel show Unidentified: Inside America’s UFO Investigation is a 2017 headline from the New York Times projected on a flickering screen: Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious UFO Program.
UFO Expert May Not Have Worked for Shadowy Pentagon Program
Talk about skeptical!
At least they are talking.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 110 of 214 (864638)
10-13-2019 10:05 PM


Guess what Project I was just tipped off on? (conspiracy stuff)
My friend just asked me what I was reading (I was on the Issues in Science and Technology site), and I said "UFO disclosures" and issues (not covered in what I was reading but I quickly mentioned) about the Navy trying to get its seamen to report UFOs.
My answer lasted about 4 seconds.
He quickly told me to google PROJECT BLUE BEAM.
(He was in a hurry and went home)
I only have seen the google page, and have not read about it yet.
But is does seem to be a conspiracy theory that promotes the idea of UFOs (?) created by human technology to "trick people".
(btw, this was my ethnic Mexican friend I mentioned once in another thread. He does favor "open borders" actually, but I said he was anti-immigration in a post about other stuff. I can't find the thread. I thought he did not support "open borders" - based on various theories he promotes. I wanted to correct myself, I suppose now is the time. I need to ask him if he agrees with the spirit of these conspiracy theories he is so full of. The seem to be designed to promote nationalism. This guy supports Trump but is for open borders.)
PROJECT BLUE BEAM type conspiracy theories seem to be motivated by nationalism.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 113 of 214 (864680)
10-14-2019 7:03 PM


Elizondo seems to get past the anecdotal stuff. That what we should appreciate.
Reading the anecdotal stories about clouds below airplanes (and all the confused perspectives and optical illusions to go along with it), and interior lights reflecting on person's reading glasses (great story that I am glad to hear, for darn certain), I REALLY HAVE TO APPRECIATE THE SCIENTIFIC MINDSET OF LUIS ELIZONDO.
I don't diminish the value of personal stories, but they tend to be a red herring technique used by deniers (deniers of science and the scientific process). These creationist style "Piltdown Hoax"-esque anecdotal PAST stories are cool to hear, but they often do serve to functions as a major distraction from the stuff actually being looked at by the scientifically minded 2019 folks. It is all about the context of the information, I suppose.
I am, actually, cool with it all (the stories are awesome, frankly), but it is not part of the scientific inquiry currently underway.
Just like I don't mind a good conspiracy theory, especially if it has some sort of evidence (Operation Blue Beam is pure fiction).
I like to hear why people promote the theories and stories they do. I also admire those who don't like the conclusions of some theory, but they feel the evidence demands our attention (Again, Operation Blue Beam is pure fiction).
('UFOs are demons" is, also, quite a weak theory, minus a lot of explaining and special pleading)
Luis Elizondo looks beyond the "Piltdown Hoax" stuff the deniers like to peddle.
I think we all should appreciate his mindset.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 140 of 214 (886388)
05-18-2021 11:16 PM


Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Unclassified report coming to Congress next month.
Luis Elizondo is the man of the century.
Harry Reid (former Democratic Senate leader) is surely proud of AATIP ( and the successor UAP Task Force).
Now we will all be able to ask the questions, once the accurate synopsis of the data is going to be in all our minds.
Science goes forward - eventually.
Ultimately.

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-18-2021 11:42 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 141 of 214 (886389)
05-18-2021 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by LamarkNewAge
05-18-2021 11:16 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Google
60 Minutes May 16 Graham Messick
The report, thankfully, had multiple experts focus on the issue of MULTIPLE perspective observation views/recordings of objects. High tech observation that goes beyond the already impressive (if not decisive) duo of infra red & radar observations of the same event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-18-2021 11:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by anglagard, posted 05-19-2021 5:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 154 of 214 (886431)
05-19-2021 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by anglagard
05-19-2021 5:03 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
I have known of absolutely zero UFO researchers who feel that the Roswell (aka Corona, New Mexico story made up decades later by Jesse Marcel jr.) or Fire In The Sky events (Arizona 1976 story) are any actual UFO events.
(Stanton Friedman was the loner who stuck with Roswell for decades too long, perhaps due to his 1977 book Crash at Corona being held too close to his chest)
UFO researchers were extremely grateful to Philip Klass for his detective work on the Fire in THE SKY incident. Klass was an arch nemesis of UFO researchers and buffs, but all acknowledged that we would be in the dark if not for his invaluable work. The hoax is clear.
But, again, why are we still obsessing over the Piltman Hoax?
What about the scientific inquiry currently underway?
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anglagard, posted 05-19-2021 5:03 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 8:28 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 156 of 214 (886438)
05-19-2021 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tanypteryx
05-19-2021 8:28 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Respond to (my) post 113, from a few years ago
(My last post before the one a few day ago)
It already anticipates the Roswell/Piltman mold I just read.
(My point is that this current AATIP/ Elizondo Senate hearing is an issue grounded in SCIENCE itself, not some historical account of speculation and/or blunders from a half century ago. This is not about the mid 1970s and not about the infectious obsessions that lasted well into the early years of the internet age)
( This is not an anthropological look back at blunders from the past. Creationism is built around surgical techniques that zoom in on the history of being wrong. The Piltman Man is a ghost from the past. Keep it in context or run the risk of being totally irrelevant in 2021)
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 8:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 10:35 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 158 of 214 (886440)
05-19-2021 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tanypteryx
05-19-2021 10:35 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
( My phone is misspelling the crap out of my words. I lost a long post correcting the spelling errors) it deleted.
Attempt again:
Here is a short sociological
Guess which televised show had the first ever scene that featured a black man in bed with a white woman.
THe hint is that the male was James Earl Ray.
What was the driver of the previously taboo presentation? Was it Captain James T Kirk, of the USS Enterprise (who was featured in a Star Trek episode doing the unprecedented: kissing a black woman, Lt. Aurora)?
Nope.
It was actually the 1960's couple, from New Hampshire, Betty & Barney Hill, who had a UFO abduction experience.
It led to a 1974 movie, that was watched by a significant percentage of Americans.
It was viral and pre internet st the same time.
It was undoubtedly the motivation for the 1976 Fire In The Sky hoax( a long with the National Inquire million dollar offer for a good UFO story that facilitated the lie).
It was surely the inspiration for the 1977 Stanton Friedman book, Crash At Corona (the town near Roswell) , which, in proper turn,led to further embellishments.
Kinda like the mad old Piltdown firestorm.
Now we have creationism making hay out of the P Man hoax, and the ideological cousins, of creationism, making hay - while the sun blinds - out of the old Roswell sensation.
Who are these close relatives of creationists?
They seem to be the large chunk of uncritical minded UFO skeptics? They might fashion themselves as critics but there is no way one can be scientifically "critical" if there is only a selective set of incidents that are used as subjects of investigation. That is problem number 1.
Problemo Numero Uno is the pathetic apparatus.
It gets much worse when one notices that Roswell is about as deep as the dig gets (that and ball lightening, as Klass used to use as the excuse for everything, in the 1960s, before he dropped the angle completely)
The problem is the mockery of the scientific process generally, and the failure, on the part of the UFO skeptics, to openly disclose the pseudo scientific nature of their approach.
What is your solution to the problem of unscientific techniques that UFO skeptics bring to prevent scientific inquiry?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 10:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:40 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 159 of 214 (886441)
05-19-2021 11:50 PM


Note: the public is watching and gets influenced by the conduct of debate sides
This UFO issue might get a lot of attention, so I ask the skeptical community to avoid slight of hand techniques BUT INSTEAD present arguments using a scientific methodology that will be mindful of the teachable moment this opportunity presents to the larger society.
The public deserves debate that is not only we worthy of the name "science", but one that respects the public generally.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 161 of 214 (886443)
05-20-2021 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2021 12:40 AM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Luis Elizondo says that the government has much more evidence of UFOs, via video ( in addition to other detection methods), than what has already been disclosed.
The UFO skeptics are going to be ( hopefully) forced to deal with the evidence that matters, not the "evidence" that does not matter.
The actual evidence ( as opposed to the UFO skeptic's selected "evidence" which is designed to delay the scientific process for the indefinite future) is what will be the subject of scientific inquiry .
Science was dealt a setback around 300 to 500 CE, and there was a dark age for 1000 years. Science seems to move forward - eventually. It is a question of how long it takes.
Now or later?
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:40 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 1:12 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 167 by anglagard, posted 05-20-2021 3:55 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 168 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-20-2021 8:08 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 169 of 214 (886463)
05-20-2021 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by anglagard
05-20-2021 3:55 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
So how was the Hagia Sophia some sort of scientific driver?
I also have to wonder just what you think my point was. You mentioned an Indian king from BCE times plus Aristotle. I suppose you were saying that Ibdiand and Middle Easterners preserved their works.
Standard historical treatments state that after the fall of the West Roman Empire, Europeans simply relied upon ancient Greek scientific writings, but science was stuck for about 1000 years.
quote:
P.671
Early civilizations developed different kinds of science to solve practical problems. Among the first sciences were mathematics, astronomy, and medicine.
....
The early Greeks left behind a large amount of scientific knowledge. ...As they studied the world, they developed theories.
....
The Greeks made many important scientific advances, but their approach to science had some problems. For example, they did not experiment, or test, new ideas to see if they were true. Many of their conclusions were false because they were based on "common sense" insteadvof experiments.
....
After the fall of Rome, during the Middle Ages, most Europeans were more interested in theology, the study of God, than in the study of nature. For scientific knowledge, they relied on Greek and Roman writings and saw no need to check their facts or to make their own observations. Many of these ancient works, however, were either lost or poorly preserved. In the writings that survived, errors were added as copies were made.
Meanwhile, Arabs and Jews in the Islamic Empire preserved much of the science of the Greeks and Romans. They carefully copied many Greek and Roman works into the Arabic language. They also came into contact with the science of the Persians and the Indian system of mathematics.
Arabic and Jewish scientists made advances of their own in areas such as mathematics, astronomy, and medicine. However, in spite of these achievements, scientists in the Islamic world did not experiment or develop the instruments necessary to advance their scientific knowledge.
During the 1100s, European thinkers became interested in science again as a result of their contacts with the Islamic world . Major Islamic scientific works were brought to Europe and translated into Latin. The Hindu-Arabic system of numerals also spread to Europe, where it eventually replaced Roman numerals .
....
p 673
During the 1500s, European thinkers began to break with old scientific ideas. They increasingly understood that advances in science could only come through mathematics and experimentation. This new way of thinking led to a revolution, or sweeping change, in the way Europeans understood science and the search for knowledge.
P.213
quote:
During the Gupta empire, art and science also began to develop. Earlier, you learned that Greece had a golden age of art and learning. India also had a golden age of art and learning during the Gupta empire.
....
P.216
Ancient Indians made important contributions in other scientific fields, especially astronomy. They followed and mapped movements of planets and stars. They understood that the Eartj was round and revolved around the sun. They also seem to have understood gravity.
Indiand developed ideas about what the universe was made of. As early as the 500s B.C., Indian thinkers believed that the universe was made up of many very tiny particles. They came up with ideas of atoms before the Greeks in the west did.
I see nothing that contradicts my roughly 1000 year gap in scientific advances from roughly the time of Constantine. 1100 saw some catching up, among Europeans, and most discoveries and theories were roughly before, or during 300-500 AD.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by anglagard, posted 05-20-2021 3:55 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by anglagard, posted 05-21-2021 4:05 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 175 of 214 (886485)
05-21-2021 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by anglagard
05-21-2021 4:05 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Where to begin?
One of your big themes is that you attack historians for claiming there was a dark age in Europe from 476 to 1300. You like to make examples out of ones who lived really long ago.
You then claim that these are Eurocentric academics who ignored the rest of the world.
The BIG PROBLEM is your strange memory problems, which cause one glaring inconsistency in your categorization of the history of academic writing. The same dark age peddling historians, that you so disdain, were generally promoters of the idea that Midfle Easterners ( especially the ones that ruled during the Caliphate of Cordoba) were a light in the surrounding darkness.
More themes of yours:
I don't recall you mentioning the Mesoamerican's scientific knowledge, but I am sure you would throw those accomplishments into the mix of your academic enemy's list of sins, while your Eurocentric accusations get their high frequency output.
My response there is just to point out that Mayans, and related peoples, were isolated from the old world, and while they were independently advanced in science, the pre-Colombus New World accomplishments, had no contribution to the line of scientific research & knowledge (not even indirectly) that brought about modern astronomy ( Kepler was born in 1571, so let us consider him as an example of a link between the Ptolemaic and Copernican "schools" we all see as in historical succession).
It does not mean Mayans were in any way inferior or shoved aside due to cultural bias.
The main theme of yours seems to be that Europeans were always advancing scientifically anyway. You use the 1000 year Byzantium region ( with its wealthy Byzantine empire) as an example.
You are clearly impressed with architecture (bigger is better?) and you clearly feel that the use of geometry, by engineering geniuses, will constitute a very "hard" "science". You will probably even consider the engineering challenges, of large buildings, to constitute "scientific experimentation" when it is accompanied with multiple decades of collapsing structures and seemingly endless imperial funds ( thanks to Theodora stealing money from families trying to free enslaved relatives) earmarked for the biggest domed building ever.
I will just say the geometric work was already done centuries prior. and the style of the dome was already designed , again, centuries earlier.
I suppose you feel that any manufacturing constitutes "science"? The crossbow would be a great "scientific marvel", right? Not that it did not enable the Mongols to destroy the world, mind you.
( And I should point out that much of what is described as medieval "science" was really humanism, or the love of writings from the past)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by anglagard, posted 05-21-2021 4:05 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by anglagard, posted 05-22-2021 12:29 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 176 of 214 (886489)
05-22-2021 12:38 AM


Astronaut John Glenn convinced Democratic leader Harry Reid to take UFOs seriously
John Glenn said that UFOs were always traveling near him when he went up into space. He said that you knew that you weren't supposed to say anything about it.
Edgardo Mitchell and Gordon Cooper would still hear from their fellow astronauts about UFOs.
Observations from witnesses mean something, scientifically speaking, not blathering from non astronauts (who form the bedrock of the UFO "skeptic" community). I trust the scientific work, of an observer with a telescope, over a legally blind babbler who refuses to wear his glasses, and I will any day of the week.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 05-22-2021 4:37 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 10:06 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 181 of 214 (886795)
06-08-2021 9:53 AM


June 25 is report. Thursday, New York Times reported on leaked working conclusions.
NPR , 3 days ago said that the only certain conclusion, of coming report, is that the objects are not top secret government technology. (The report will falsify the posts here, which argue that this is military research being witnessed)
Elizondo is extremely unhappy, however. He is about to run for congress, as he sees a wet report coming

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 190 of 214 (886819)
06-11-2021 1:44 AM


A quote from Carl Sagan is warranted.
In every age and culture, there are those who see past the prejudices of their day, and faithfully record the details. Future generations are in their debt.

  
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