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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 726
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 91 of 124 (886790)
06-07-2021 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
06-07-2021 3:23 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Of course I do. You act as if relativism is the norm. It isn't.


Of course it is, everything is relative. Why are you denying such an obvious truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 3:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 124 (886793)
06-08-2021 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by kjsimons
06-07-2021 7:59 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Im not sure. I was taught that beliefs are absolute. Nearly all Biblical Christians (as jar calls us) believe nearly the same basic thing. Although I suppose that I am not a creationist in the strict sense of the definition. Ken is a Ham, and the planet is quite obviously millions if not billions of years old. Adam & Eve were a metaphor. The snake in the garden was an archetype of satan, and my jury is still out regarding Biblical Literalness.

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile. One of them actually is GOD. An absolute. Not one of many.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2021 7:59 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 06-08-2021 12:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2021 12:33 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 96 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-08-2021 7:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 97 by DrJones*, posted 06-08-2021 8:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 113 by Aussie, posted 06-18-2021 2:10 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 93 of 124 (886802)
06-08-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
06-07-2021 3:23 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

You act as if relativism is the norm.


Of course it is. If you think there's anything objective about your views, you have to demonstrate that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-07-2021 3:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 94 of 124 (886803)
06-08-2021 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile.


But of course you can. There is nothing objective to distinguish one from another.

Phat writes:

One of them actually is GOD


You can't possibly know that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 95 of 124 (886805)
06-08-2021 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Adam & Eve were a metaphor [...] and my jury is still out regarding Biblical Literalness.

Clearly your jury has called it non-literal.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 614
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 96 of 124 (886811)
06-08-2021 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat, you are a Monotheist Trinitarian. That pretty much tells us how rational your thinking is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2177
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 97 of 124 (886812)
06-08-2021 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
One of them actually is GOD

right, king of kings, lord of lords, Odin the Allfather

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4041
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 98 of 124 (886814)
06-09-2021 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
06-06-2021 2:37 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

...humanists are in love with the idea that we determine our destiny...

And we see it differently. I perceive or feel that I DO have another choice.

This response implies that you do not understand the point I'm trying to make.
Which is probably my fault - I'll try to be clearer here.

I understand that you feel like you have another choice.
And I don't have any issues with you feeling such a way.
I don't even care if you can prove it to me or not - you're free to feel any way you'd like.

My issue is that you seem to think that humanists are IN LOVE with this idea.
That is - you seem to think that humanists are choosing or desiring to be "in control" of their own destiny.

But - that's not what's happening.

Humanists are "stuck with" the idea of humans/the-natural-world being "in control" of their own destiny (as much as one can control a possible meteor strike that kills us all?)

Simply because there's no one else doing it.

Your feeling that you have another option is great for you - but it's useless to a humanist because the option does not exist for them.

This doesn't mean the humanist "loves" the option they have - some will and some won't. It only means they are stuck with it regardless of what they want.

It's like someone telling Stile that he's having pepperoni pizza for dinner.
Then they tell Phat that he can choose between the pizza or steak.

Then Phat tells Stile he's IN LOVE with pepperoni pizza because he didn't choose steak.

Stile didn't get the choice. There's only pepperoni pizza available.
Stile may like pizza, or not - it doesn't matter. There's no other option available.
Stile eating pepperoni pizza doesn't mean he's in love with it or wants it or desires it.
Stile is only eating pepperoni pizza because Stile has to eat and its the only option that's available.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 06-06-2021 2:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 06-09-2021 12:43 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 124 (886815)
06-09-2021 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Stile
06-09-2021 12:02 PM


Perceived Choices and Options
I like your analogies. They are so explanatory.

I think that when I use the term "in love with" it is projecting my feelings about why I make the choice that I perceive that I have been given. It never occurred to me that you don't feel that you honestly have such a choice, but now that you have explained it, I can better understand your perspective.

I was assuming that both of us were "in love" with the choice which we made. I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality. They really have no clue. And I respect and appreciate that you acknowledge how I think also.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 06-09-2021 12:02 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 06-10-2021 3:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 100 of 124 (886818)
06-10-2021 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
06-09-2021 12:43 PM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I was assuming that both of us were "in love" with the choice which we made.

You slipped back into your original phrasing, using the word "choice." Another analogy is math. We do not choose that 2+2=4. There's just no other option.

I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality.

Whether criticism is deserved depends. Is belief in God a spiritual choice? Or, as with Raphael, is it a reasoned conclusion based on what he'll insist is evidence. Do you know of any science or mathematics, fields that we know tell us things that are very likely true about the real world, that accepts revelation as an answer?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typos.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 06-09-2021 12:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 06-11-2021 4:07 PM Percy has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 124 (886832)
06-11-2021 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
06-10-2021 3:06 PM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Percy writes:

Is belief in God a spiritual choice? Or, as with Raphael, is it a reasoned conclusion based on what he'll insist is evidence. Do you know of any science or mathematics, fields that we know tell us things that are very likely true about the real world, that accepts revelation as an answer?


For me, I became convinced when my entire inner feeling changed. I don't believe that I initiated the change and certainly didn't expect it.

Since that initial time, it has largely been confirmation bias.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 06-10-2021 3:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 06-13-2021 9:02 AM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 102 of 124 (886860)
06-13-2021 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
06-11-2021 4:07 PM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality.
...
For me, I became convinced when my entire inner feeling changed.

Nothing changed but your thinking/feelings. No new information became available to you, and nothing in the real world changed.

Since that initial time, it has largely been confirmation bias.

Why are you knowingly applying a fallacious non-objective method? Announcing this is like bragging, "I'm an idiot only interested in cementing what I already believe while ignoring evidence of other possibilities."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 06-11-2021 4:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:41 AM Percy has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 124 (886865)
06-13-2021 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Percy
06-13-2021 9:02 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
My reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek. When I was taught (or read) the formative beliefs which I adapted, I adapted them becuae they sounded rational and correct to me. New information is considered by me based on how it feels to me rather than any evidence attached to it. I am unmoved by only evidence...for evidence is never final..it is by nature progressive.

A living Jesus speaks to my heart. An evolving concept of religion and human responses to it does not.

Percy writes:

Nothing changed but your thinking/feelings. No new information became available to you, and nothing in the real world changed.

I would argue assert that awareness of the Holy Spirit was in fact new information.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 06-13-2021 9:02 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-13-2021 3:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-15-2021 9:35 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 104 of 124 (886882)
06-13-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
06-13-2021 11:41 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I am unmoved by only evidence...for evidence is never final..it is by nature progressive.

A living Jesus speaks to my heart. An evolving concept of religion and human responses to it does not.


So you reject progressive knowledge based on evidence - in favor of the absolute knowledge that you already have. How arrogant.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 105 of 124 (886893)
06-15-2021 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
06-13-2021 11:41 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

My reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek. When I was taught (or read) the formative beliefs which I adapted, I adapted them because they sounded rational and correct to me. New information is considered by me based on how it feels to me rather than any evidence attached to it.

How is this not pretty much the same claptrap as what you said before?

I am unmoved by only evidence...for evidence is never final..it is by nature progressive.

Not even you believe this. If you look out your window and see rain you are immediately convinced by the evidence that it is raining out. If you're driving and see an oncoming car drifting into your lane you're immediately convinced by only evidence that you're in danger and should seek ways to maneuver to the right. You are "moved" by only evidence constantly all the time throughout your life.

I think what you're trying to say is that you feel free to accept or reject evidence based on how you feel about it when it comes to things that can't hurt you or negatively affect you in some way.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:41 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 12:37 PM Percy has responded

  
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