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Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 196 of 214 (886831)
06-11-2021 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ringo
06-11-2021 3:21 PM


Re: Aliens As Demons
A better way would be to pose as a Christian.
That too is a distinct possibility. Though in that case, nobody would take him seriously. Posing as a wise alien would allow him credibility (and awe)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 06-11-2021 3:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2021 4:19 PM Phat has responded
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 06-12-2021 12:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16978
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 197 of 214 (886833)
06-11-2021 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
06-11-2021 4:00 PM


Re: Aliens As Demons
Pretending to be a Christian worked pretty well for Trump. I can’t say that pretending to be a space alien would have been better for him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-11-2021 4:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 10:13 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 198 of 214 (886835)
06-12-2021 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by xongsmith
06-11-2021 1:12 PM


Re: Aliens As Demons
I read an interesting commentary on that.
quote:
When the paperback edition of Childhood's End came out, Clarke added a warning in the front: "The opinions expressed in this book are not those of the author." One of the "opinions" he is referring to is undoubtedly this one. Almost all of the rest of Clarke's fiction supports the idea that Earth is just a frog pond where humanity is currently growing and developing but will eventually leave by reaching out to the stars.

So why, in this book, does Karellen say, "the stars are not for man?" This may be the result of the mythological and folkloric framework that Clarke used as the basis for Childhood's End. More than most of Clarke's novel, Childhood's End draws on allegory: the Overlords are Satan and his rebel angels, the Overmind is a God-like figure, and the assimilation of the children into the Overmind is the Rapture and Armageddon rolled into one.



"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by xongsmith, posted 06-11-2021 1:12 PM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by xongsmith, posted 06-12-2021 4:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 200 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2021 5:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2057
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 199 of 214 (886836)
06-12-2021 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Phat
06-12-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Aliens As Demons
Phat notes a guy making a commentary that ends:
(commentator writes here)
More than most of Clarke's novel, Childhood's End draws on allegory: the Overlords are Satan and his rebel angels, the Overmind is a God-like figure, and the assimilation of the children into the Overmind is the Rapture and Armageddon rolled into one.

well, that guy has got his head up his arse. The book clearly paints the Overlords as a species that never gets to become part of the Overmind. So much so that I felt sad for Karellen. He is as far from the bibical Satan as he can get, *despite* looking like man's early depictions.

In fact Clarke has created an original dynamic, and we, the audience, are left unable to condemn or praise the Overmind. But certainly we cannot condemn the Overlords!


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 1:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16978
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 200 of 214 (886837)
06-12-2021 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Phat
06-12-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Aliens As Demons
To call it “allegory” goes too far. Clarke doesn’t closely follow the Christian end-times ideas (and I’m not sure he would be following an American version at all). The Overlords aren’t rebel angels at all - they are willing servants of the Overmind.

The idea of future generations of humanity being subsumed into first a single racial mind, then a larger cosmic intelligence doesn’t fit well either (even if some Christians - usually tending to mysticism - adopt something resembling the latter view, it’s hardly explicit, of even clearly implicit, in the Bible).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 1:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 201 of 214 (886838)
06-12-2021 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by PaulK
06-11-2021 4:19 PM


Whom To Deceive & Impress
Rabbit Trail: Actual Aliens vs Mythological Angels & Demons.

Following the rabbit...Yes, Trump charmed a lot of Christian Right-Wing Populists with his Christian persona, though to me it was hypocritical and thinly veiled. I couldn't understand why so many "Christians" were on Trumps side. For the love of money...And now the bleeding hearts are back in power. Wanting to raise the tide and help all boats refloat after the pandemic. Imagine if there were an antichrist. His main mission? Deceiving the whole world and leading us away from Christ. Were he to show up as a larger-than-life charismatic figure, he may well dazzle the Christians, but in order to dazzle the secular humanist critical thinkers, he would have to masquerade as a space alien because he would need to impress the secular mind. The evidence-based mind.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2021 4:19 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2021 10:37 AM Phat has responded
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 06-12-2021 12:32 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16978
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 202 of 214 (886839)
06-12-2021 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-12-2021 10:13 AM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
Impressing a large group with a conformist and authoritarian mindset seems like a good idea. A weakness for conspiracy theories is a bonus. So, I think that - in the US anyway - impressing the Christian Right is the way to go. (And they are the experts in leading people away from Christ, too. Bonus!).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 10:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:45 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 203 of 214 (886844)
06-12-2021 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
06-11-2021 4:00 PM


Re: Aliens As Demons
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

A better way would be to pose as a Christian.


That too is a distinct possibility.

That seems to be the way the Bible tells it.

Phat writes:

Though in that case, nobody would take him seriously. Posing as a wise alien would allow him credibility (and awe)


On the contrary, if he claimed to be a space alien, nobody would take him seriously. They'd put him in a straight-jacket.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-11-2021 4:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 204 of 214 (886845)
06-12-2021 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-12-2021 10:13 AM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
Phat writes:

Imagine if there were an antichrist. His main mission? Deceiving the whole world and leading us away from Christ. Were he to show up as a larger-than-life charismatic figure, he may well dazzle the Christians, but in order to dazzle the secular humanist critical thinkers...


When the Bible was written, the authors were not thinking about "secular humanist thinkers". They were thinking about Jews and pagans.

Phat writes:

... he would need to impress the secular mind. The evidence-based mind.


He couldn't impress the evidence-based mind without evidence. You can only fool people with false gods and false doctrines if they don't require evidence.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 10:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 205 of 214 (886848)
06-12-2021 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
06-12-2021 12:32 PM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
If aliens showed up, were photographed, interviewed, (or at least interviewed about and otherwise documented, people would have their precious evidence. They would have captured our minds via the Trojan Horse of documented evidence.

We would still be deceived.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 06-12-2021 12:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Tangle, posted 06-12-2021 3:12 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 06-13-2021 3:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 206 of 214 (886849)
06-12-2021 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by PaulK
06-12-2021 10:37 AM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
PaulK writes:

mpressing a large group with a conformist and authoritarian mindset seems like a good idea.

How about impressing (another) large group with a tale of being an alien refugee who escaped a vengeful war from another solar system and who is here to offer wisdom and altruistic ideals for a world starving for hope?

What if such a figure were allowed to talk to the earthly masses and ended up impressing them? (Unlike Jesus who was persecuted by the authorities)

No gods or religions need to apply in this case. The secular world would have their evidence...in this personality.

Its the kinder gentler version of humanistic altruism. Given to us from a supposed wiser being from another, more advanced place.

Perfect setup.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2021 10:37 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2021 2:54 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 06-13-2021 3:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16978
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 207 of 214 (886850)
06-12-2021 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
06-12-2021 2:45 PM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
quote:
How about impressing (another) large group with a tale of being an alien refugee who escaped a vengeful war from another solar system and who is here to offer wisdom and altruistic ideals for a world starving for hope?

Not as good if he wants to be a dictator, especially if he wants a theocratic dictatorship. And since you’re discussing SDA belief with Raphael, did you know that SDAs consider “the mark of the Beast” to be mandatory Sunday worship ? (Or so I’ve heard). I’ve seen an explanation and it’s far less crazy than the nonsense about barcodes.

quote:
Its the kinder gentler version of humanistic altruism. Given to us from a supposed wiser being from another, more advanced place.

Perfect setup.


Not for a ruthless theocratic dictatorship. The “Christians” are far more likely to go for that - especially the ones that want it anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:45 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8201
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 208 of 214 (886852)
06-12-2021 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
06-12-2021 2:35 PM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
Phat writes:

If aliens showed up, were photographed, interviewed, (or at least interviewed about and otherwise documented, people would have their precious evidence. They would have captured our minds via the Trojan Horse of documented evidence.
We would still be deceived.

Alternatively, they could 'just' be aliens.

I mean in the realms of likelihood, is it more probable that an alien would turn up or .... ffs I'm a grown man, I'm not discussing this drivel.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 209 of 214 (886877)
06-13-2021 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
06-12-2021 2:35 PM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
Phat writes:

If aliens showed up, were photographed, interviewed, (or at least interviewed about and otherwise documented, people would have their precious evidence.


The same applies to leprechauns, Bigfeet, Loch Ness Monsters, etc.

Phat writes:

They would have captured our minds via the Trojan Horse of documented evidence.
We would still be deceived.


What a stupid thing to say.

In your bizzaro world, evidence is deception? Give your head a shake.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 210 of 214 (886878)
06-13-2021 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
06-12-2021 2:45 PM


Re: Whom To Deceive & Impress
Phat writes:

What if such a figure were allowed to talk to the earthly masses and ended up impressing them? (Unlike Jesus who was persecuted by the authorities)


Not "unlike Jesus". He did impress the earthy masses.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 06-12-2021 2:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 3:18 PM ringo has responded

  
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