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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 92 of 126 (886793)
06-08-2021 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by kjsimons
06-07-2021 7:59 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Im not sure. I was taught that beliefs are absolute. Nearly all Biblical Christians (as jar calls us) believe nearly the same basic thing. Although I suppose that I am not a creationist in the strict sense of the definition. Ken is a Ham, and the planet is quite obviously millions if not billions of years old. Adam & Eve were a metaphor. The snake in the garden was an archetype of satan, and my jury is still out regarding Biblical Literalness.

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile. One of them actually is GOD. An absolute. Not one of many.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2021 7:59 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 06-08-2021 12:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2021 12:33 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 96 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-08-2021 7:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 97 by DrJones*, posted 06-08-2021 8:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 113 by Aussie, posted 06-18-2021 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 99 of 126 (886815)
06-09-2021 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Stile
06-09-2021 12:02 PM


Perceived Choices and Options
I like your analogies. They are so explanatory.

I think that when I use the term "in love with" it is projecting my feelings about why I make the choice that I perceive that I have been given. It never occurred to me that you don't feel that you honestly have such a choice, but now that you have explained it, I can better understand your perspective.

I was assuming that both of us were "in love" with the choice which we made. I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality. They really have no clue. And I respect and appreciate that you acknowledge how I think also.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 06-09-2021 12:02 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 06-10-2021 3:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 101 of 126 (886832)
06-11-2021 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
06-10-2021 3:06 PM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Percy writes:

Is belief in God a spiritual choice? Or, as with Raphael, is it a reasoned conclusion based on what he'll insist is evidence. Do you know of any science or mathematics, fields that we know tell us things that are very likely true about the real world, that accepts revelation as an answer?


For me, I became convinced when my entire inner feeling changed. I don't believe that I initiated the change and certainly didn't expect it.

Since that initial time, it has largely been confirmation bias.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 06-10-2021 3:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 06-13-2021 9:02 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 103 of 126 (886865)
06-13-2021 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Percy
06-13-2021 9:02 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
My reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek. When I was taught (or read) the formative beliefs which I adapted, I adapted them becuae they sounded rational and correct to me. New information is considered by me based on how it feels to me rather than any evidence attached to it. I am unmoved by only evidence...for evidence is never final..it is by nature progressive.

A living Jesus speaks to my heart. An evolving concept of religion and human responses to it does not.

Percy writes:

Nothing changed but your thinking/feelings. No new information became available to you, and nothing in the real world changed.

I would argue assert that awareness of the Holy Spirit was in fact new information.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 06-13-2021 9:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-13-2021 3:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-15-2021 9:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 107 of 126 (886900)
06-17-2021 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Aussie
06-16-2021 1:34 PM


Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
Aussie writes:

FYI, The Government isn't telling you to give an additional 10 percent over your required taxes.

My gripe was the whole liberal mandate for reparations. If they can manage to get that placed in the budget, we will be obliged to pay it. I disagree with the basic premise is all I'm saying.

Your God and your church are sending you that bill...
...

God sends me no bills. It's the church and the organized religion that push that stuff. And I only give to them what I choose to give. I am under no obligation. The only impetus that "my God" places on me is to help those less fortunate. There are no stipulations that any church need receive this money.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockian discourse


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Aussie, posted 06-16-2021 1:34 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by nwr, posted 06-17-2021 2:56 PM Phat has replied
 Message 110 by Aussie, posted 06-17-2021 3:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 108 of 126 (886908)
06-17-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
06-15-2021 9:35 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality.
For me, I became convinced when my entire inner feeling changed.

Percy writes:

Nothing changed but your thinking/feelings.

I suppose you can argue that. Most believers would assert that something changed them. That their thinking and feelings were changed.

No new information became available to you, and nothing in the real world changed.
How could you know that? You are not a garden variety believer and thus you have never had the experience with which to critically evaluate.

Phat, Tongue firmly in cheek writes:

Since that initial time, it has largely been confirmation bias.

Percy writes:

Why are you knowingly applying a fallacious non-objective method? Announcing this is like bragging, "I'm an idiot only interested in cementing what I already believe while ignoring evidence of other possibilities."

Why not? If you apply the critical thinking of the scientific method to your belief, you likely will never settle on anything. I believe in standing for something and taking a leap of faith that what I feel and experience is/was God rather than keep looking for something else. I have felt as if He speaks to me at times. I have heard similar confirming stories from others...in some cases, lives were changed for the better. The only place I ever hear tales of lives getting better after dropping religion (and God, and Jesus and the whole nine yards) is in places like EvC. I think many of you threw the Holy Baby out with the bathwater. But go with Science as a philosophy and see how it helps you through hard times. To define and believe that reality favors no one and that we as humans must struggle to survive is not far from Christianity. The main difference is that you dismiss God and claim we must do it ourselves. How depressing! I could care less if I'm the grass that pushed through the sidewalk and survived. Survival in and of itself means nothing. I don't worship our collective offspring.

Percy writes:

I think what you're trying to say is that you feel free to accept or reject evidence based on how you feel about it when it comes to things that can't hurt you or negatively affect you in some way.

I'm thinking about this statement. In some ways, I feel free to accept or reject evidence and how I feel about it when it applies to things that CAN hurt me or negatively affect me. The whole idea of "throwing God away" is insulting and disrespectful to not only Him but to humans in general. We are NOT God. Nor are we the only solution to our own survival. (proving this won't be easy, I know)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-15-2021 9:35 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 06-19-2021 12:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 111 of 126 (886915)
06-17-2021 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Aussie
06-17-2021 3:16 PM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
Aussie writes:

It is really a fascinating study reading you Phat; like, how many ways can one person deny the religion he wants to preach to others...

Quite simply, I believe it is all a spiritual war...and a test of sorts for humanity. For someone who was never initially convinced, the whole story sounds made up, though CS Lewis argued otherwise. Many believers are adamant that the books are literal, but few of them even bother considering other arguments. I never have given them much consideration. I suppose that any good scientific guy would attempt to falsify the belief before accepting it, but I became sold on it due to my emotional transformation, which later proved to be negotiable. Im somewhat of a rebel.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Aussie, posted 06-17-2021 3:16 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 114 of 126 (886928)
06-19-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Aussie
06-18-2021 2:10 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Aussie writes:

Says Phallible Phat and his mushy feelings. Trust me when I tell you that you can't conceive of the clarity and beauty of reality while you are bogged down and lost in the bondage of religion. When you are finally brave enough to stand up and begin to make eye contact with the Universe, the scales will begin to fall off your eyes, and you will wonder why it took you so long.

You are projecting your situation onto me. I already do conceive the clarity and beauty of reality. You simply awakened to the fact that you were trying to please Daddy and under willful bondage to an authoritarian religious system. I have never been trapped in such illusions. You also likely fell under the sway of the anti-apologists like Matt Dillahunty, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris...not to mention Dennet. Wanting to reject the oppressive authoritarianism, you threw your god out with it all. For me, throwing God away is as serious as throwing my own life away and throwing the majik of the universe and nature away. Thus I have no reason to even think of doing so.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Aussie, posted 06-18-2021 2:10 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 124 by Aussie, posted 06-19-2021 6:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 116 of 126 (886930)
06-19-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
06-19-2021 12:18 PM


Objective Reality
ringo writes:

You can't be objective all by yourself. Every religion thinks they have the clarity that you think you have. Objective reality is something that people with different religious beliefs can agree on.

So then are you saying that objective reality is arrived at by consensus? I think not. And for that, you call me arrogant.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 118 of 126 (886932)
06-19-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by nwr
06-17-2021 2:56 PM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
nwr writes:

I know quite a few liberals who do not favor reparations. And they do not favor it for good liberal reasons.

That's encouraging.
Liberal moderates don't threaten me. Both liberal and conservative extremists are possessed by another spirit, it seems. They use political causes for their own nefarious ends.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by nwr, posted 06-17-2021 2:56 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 119 of 126 (886933)
06-19-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
06-19-2021 12:34 PM


Re: Objective Reality
I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else.

So I picked the right God out of a pile of imitators.
Rather, He picked me. And I've been trying to get away from Him ever since. You are right in that I don't usually listen to Him. Nobody really wants to give away all they have. Nobody that we know personally, that is.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16084
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 122 of 126 (886936)
06-19-2021 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
06-19-2021 12:45 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Context.

Phat writes:

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile.


But of course you can. There is nothing objective to distinguish one from another.
And yet you claim that objectivity is arrived at through consensus. I disagree. I have the right God.

ringo writes:

You can't possibly know that.

All I know is that you dont know what I know.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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