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Member (Idle past 5928 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
To me, the question is whether or not the Bible supports the Trinity. I don't have to believe in Frodo to figure how far it was from Rivendell to Mordor according to the story. And I don't have to believe in God to know what the Bible stories say either.
But in this Trinity issue, the question is NOT if God exists, but is "Is God one or three"?. Juvenissun writes:
You don't get to tell me which threads to leave alone. If you say: God does not exist. Then you can leave this thread alone."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that so-called "definition of the character" is a lie.
To assert that the snake tells the truth throws a whole plot twist into the definition of the character. Phat writes:
On the contrary, ONLY a fictional character could have absolute truth and ONLY a fictional character could be holier than all others.
One problem, however, is if God Himself is a fictional entity there is no absolute truth nor is any Deity any holier than any other. Phat writes:
There is no Satan. Relativism is reality.
Relativism is a plot of Satan. Phat writes:
And yet, that is exactly what the Bible suggests. See the story of the prodigal son. Unconditional acceptance.
You cant have a heaven full of independent thinkers when it comes to who is in charge... Phat writes:
That's just another bumper sticker. ... or who is truth personified."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I live in The Land of Living Skies. It says so right on our license plates.
What color is the sky in YOUR world? Phat writes:
Unevidenced to EVERYBODY. You've said so yourself. So what do you do if God is reality and yet is by nature UN evidenced to some? I'd do the same thing you would do if leprechauns were reality and yet hiding from us.
Phat writes:
No you're not. You're talking about a god made up by apologists. The god you talk about is consistently puny.
I am talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen. Phat writes:
It isn't about preference. It's about what we do know versus what we don't know. We know about chemicals, so we can hope to understand how chemicals make up the universe.
Apart from whining about no evidence, do you have any other reason to prefer chemicals as the beginning of everything we know? Phat writes:
That's a much bigger problem for your god scenario. Where did he come from? And where did they come from?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
For one thing, it says two, not three - it may be support for a Binity. Jesus says: My Father and I are one.What does that say to you about the Trinity? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not at all. In order to "win", all I have to do is tell the truth and point out that you and the apologists are not.
In order for ringo to win the argument, he must convince all of us to take the book as written, throw any God (or Jesus) character away in our mind and that the message is the important feature of the book rather than the messenger, who I would argue was and is Jesus Christ. Phat writes:
You can't seem to grasp that YOU are living proof that belivevers do NOT have a "special" understanding.
He cant seem to grasp the idea that only some people (whosoever has an ear to hear) will grasp the spirit behind the message. Phat writes:
And you consistently refuse to defend the apologists' lies. Why is that?
... he charges all of the apologists of lying for an ulterior motive and planned agenda. Phat writes:
Why on earth do many children believe in Santa Claus and then change their minds? Same answer.
One question is why on earth ringo was at one time a believer and changed his mind. Phat writes:
They are in every way the same thing.
Leprechauns are in no way the same thing. Phat writes:
So is your God. Have you forgotten how many different gods there are?
They are at best myths made up by a minority culture within Ireland. They are cultural (and local) myths. Phat writes:
The claim that God has changed your life is a false claim.
Nobody claims that Leprechauns changed their life... Phat writes:
The god made up by your right-wing cult is understandably right-wing. You want divine confirmation of your political beliefs. I suspect you think He is too right wing. But the Jesus in the Bible was, in your own words, an "extreme socialist"."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I was responding to a supposed Bible reference to the Trinity by pointing out that that reference doesn't mention a "third member" at all. The third member is what makes believers unique from non believers."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
That doesn't help the case for the Trinity. A, B and C are all separate entities. You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=3.
If A=B and B=C, would you agree that A=B=C? Juvenissun writes:
No. Of course not. "Spirit" is an aspect of deity, not a separate deity. Deity usually has "spirit" which is another form of the deity who can reach out. Right?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Juvenissun writes:
You're going to have to start providing specific references so we can see if your reading is accurate.
the Bible says:Jesus IS God; and Spirit IS God. Juvenissun writes:
Of course it matters. It's the difference between unity, binity and trinity. If you say Spot is a dog and Spot is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Or if you say Spot is brown and Rover is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Nor are you talking about one entity. So it is VERY important to read it exactly as written. Whether this means one or three, it does not matter. (By the way, I messed up the math in my previous message. It should have said, "You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=1.")
Juvenissun writes:
No.
"When you see God, you are not really seeing God, but seeing the spirit of God." Does this statement make sense? Juvenissun writes:
What scripture are those statements based on?
Spirit is not an aspect (part) of God. Spirit and God are separable. That is why the Spirit is needed. Otherwise, God does not need Spirit. Juvenissun writes:
You're going to have to cite chapter and verse. Anyway, you want to see what the Bible says. And that is what the Bible says."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's funny, coming from you.
What you miss is the individual awareness that Jesus has for each of us. Phat writes:
Speaking of awareness. To Jesus, GOD was not Loki. Or Allah. Or a Flippin spaghetti monster. GOD was (and is )His Father. He even said that "I and my Father are one." No other person has ever claimed as intimate of a relationship with a Creator nor have many even understood the uniqueness of a Creator of all seen and unseen vs a local mythos or legend. Every false Messiah makes the same claim, and a lot of evangelist too.
Phat writes:
It would be handy if you gave some examples of that. Offhand, my impression is that He taught about our obligations to each other.
As a teacher, He taught that intimacy with GOD, (Creator of all) was possible. Phat writes:
i.e. the message.
He also mentioned to His Disciples that He must go (from this realm...this life) and that they would never be alone as they would have the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter with them always. Phat writes:
Duh. The reason we are baffled is because trinitarians constantly argue that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOT "just different aspects" of the same entity. For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people are so dense and clueless regarding the idea that 1+1+1=1. Ringo the Father, Ringo the internet friend/critic/fellow poster, Ringo the husband (if he ever married), and/or ringgo the friend closer than a brother are all aspects of one person. One character. Not 3 or 4 or 7. And AGAIN, you didn't answer the question that you quoted:
quote: "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But He hasn't sent any comforter. So far, 3=0. When Jesus tells you that He must leave yet will send the comforter, He is fulfilling the promise that He will never leave you(us) nor forsake you(us). The 3=1."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you. You seem to be far from comfortable.
ringo writes:
Sez you. But He hasn't sent any comforter. Phat writes:
And many say St. Anthony comforts them. Anybody can say it.
Many say otherwise. Phat writes:
Why the hell not? It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected". And surely you can't expect scientists to be able to go up to such a critter and slap a meter or measuring device on it. I could tell you that I have a million dollars in cash on my coffee table but you can't see it because it's specially made to be invisible to make it harder to steal. You wouldn't believe me, would you? You'd say you couldn't see it because it wasn't there.
Phat writes:
That's one of several possible explanations. It's certainly a better explanation than "he's real".
At best you could claim such a phenom to be a product of collective imagination... Phat writes:
Nobody's denying that. But to those who believe in Allah, he also serves his purpose. And to those who believe in every other god, they also serve their purposes. They're all the same.
... but to those who believe, the Holy Spirit serves His purpose. Phat writes:
More often than not, people "become" believers because they were taught from birth to be believers.
In fact, that is how people become believers. Phat writes:
Bullshit. A Muslim would say the same thing. Different gods, same "explanations'. We believe, He responds, we receive."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Well, you've been extremely bad at that in the past. You predict something, I explain how you're wrong and then you make the same prediction as if I had never said anything.
You know, Ringo I can almost foresee how your response to this post will play out. Phat writes:
See? There you go. You don't pay any attention to what I actually say. You believe what you want to believe, with no reference to reality.
You claim to have "once been a believer" but I don't believe that you ever thought the way that believers think. Phat writes:
And As I keep telling you, that's a good thing. Anybody who is not a skeptic is liable to become a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Mormon, just because that's what he was always told.
You have been a skeptic from day 1. Phat writes:
That isn't true. Not all believers are Trinitarians - and not all Trinitarians would agree with your simple-minded "explanation"..
One big clue is how you argue the illogic of the 1+1+1 argument. To believers, it is patently obvious. Phat writes:
Cliff Clavin is your pastor? That explains a lot.
Rev Clavin.... Phat writes:
And you have no counter-argument. All you do is shout swear-words like, "Skeptic!" Why don't you ever stick to a discussion?
The short answer is that anyone could argue against Jesus being the only way and you continually do so. Phat writes:
On the contrary, "spiritual conflict" is drop-dead evidence that there are many gods. How could One God be in conflict?
Since there is a spiritual conflict (which I see and believe) in the world, there never will be the obvious fact that there are not many gods. Phat writes:
On the contrary, you have no counter-argument. You just keep running away from reality.
That argument is dead... Phat writes:
At least I understand my own arguments. When you present an argument, it's usually more right-wing politics than theology and you usually don't understand it anyway. Though the only reason, I could see you believe it is that you like to argue. You really don't believe in any of them. If you want to deride my arguments, for Christ's sake DISCUSS them. Don't just say, "Nuh uh," and run away.
Phat writes:
It isn't. Read my posts.
How is it so easy to "unbelieve"? Phat writes:
Again, that would be a good thing - if it was true. Children should be taught critical thinking before they are ever allowed to set foot in a church. In fact, it seems to me that both you and jar were critical thinkers first and church members second. But it isn't true. As I have said before, I was practically born in church. I could regurgitate Bible verses literally before I could read them. I was heavily indoctrinated in the crap you believe long before I ever heard of critical thinking.
Phat writes:
You don't know what most Christians teach. In Canada, most Christians are Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. - whom you would curse as "liberals". Stop pretending that you're part of some majority. You're not.
And neither of you can allow yourselves to believe what most Christians teach (and do). Phat writes:
Why don't you read my posts? I have told you before that most of the people I know are Christians.
You seemingly prefer the company of secular do-gooders who have a beer with you while unloading a food truck. Phat writes:
Non sequitur.
This leads support to your idea that St.Anthony=Jesus=Leprechauns. Which is more evidence that you never were a believer. Phat writes:
For you. You've said it many times, haven't you? ringo writes:
Convenient for whom? Ive never believed that It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected"."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
But you reject what He taught. Except that Jesus never argued against God being real."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As long as you keep denying Jesus, I'm going to keep calling you out on it.
You always. claim that I am nore anti Jesus than you are. this dead horse has been beaten enough. Phat writes:
You love and trust the "Jesus" that you made up. You continually deny the one in the Book, the only one any evidence exists for.
I love and trust Jesus.... Phat writes:
The behavior is common enough - but I don't think many professing Christians would reject the Bible as openly as you do, putting your own "experiences" above the "dusty old book".
I am not alone in this behavior. Phat writes:
As long as you keep denying Jesus, I keep pointing it out. What's puzzling about that?
And why you continually bring it up as an argumentative point puzzles me... Phat writes:
If the shoe fits, they can wear it. I'd like to think that some people would take rejecting Jesus more seriously than you do.
... unless in so doing you mean to indict a larger group of Christians. Phat writes:
I've answered that question for you before. Read my posts. is the reason you rejected Christianity at least partly to do with what you saw as hypocrisy? No, I don't have a particular problem with hypocrites. And I don't "reject" Christianity any more than you reject Mormonism. Do you reject Mormonism because Mormons are hypocrites?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But your phrasing is always the same.
Im not ignoring you so much as I am reframing and rephrasing my argument. Phat writes:
You have hundreds of posts from me that you never answered. And you're constantly grave-digging old threads and trying to start Great Debates with anybody who might conceivably agree with you, so you can't claim you don't have time. Oh I try and understand you. To do that I attempt to engage you in dialogue. And you repeatedly refuse to talk about apologetics. How is any of that attempting to engage me in dialogue?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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